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Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by NetChaplain, Feb 21, 2017.

  1. NetChaplain

    NetChaplain Member
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    When the believer in Christ learns that the forgiveness given at rebirth will never be subject to change, the concept of the permanency of faith and salvation come clearer into view and the walk is less difficult due to the right to “lay aside every weight, and the sin which does so easily beset us . . .” (Heb 12:1). We cannot know the freedom from sin’s reign if we do not walk in the knowledge that it all has been completely dealt with in the Cross.

    Only when we consider any sin to remain that has not been addressed by the Blood will we walk in our own misjudgment of its full cleansing, even though all the sin has been completely addressed and absolved in the Cross. Only when we know this truth can we always “cast all your care upon Him” (1 Pet 5:7); disallow “your heart to be troubled” (Jhn 14:1, 27); know “you are clean through the Word (Jhn 15:3),” and realize we are ever one with the Father, the Lord Jesus, and one another (Jhn 14:20; 17:21).

    -NC


    Long Gone

    A great many souls are thinking how they stand with God, instead of thinking how God stands with them. When the prodigal came to the father his thoughts were all about what he had done and what he was. He soon found what his father had done and how he felt. There is the sense of how God stands towards us, and how everything about us is removed from His eye, before we know in our soul that everything is removed from our own vision. Do you believe all is gone before the eye of your Father? Yes! Is all gone from before your eye? Ah, that is another matter?

    It is a great thing to get peace by the work of the Lord Jesus, but it is even greater to have the enjoyment of it. That is what the prodigal son wanted; he knew there was nothing between his father and himself when his father kissed him; but what troubled him was, he was not fit for his father’s house.

    Many a one knows peace with God who does not know deliverance from himself, and hence he does not enjoy his peace. I know it myself, I have gone that road. When I saw Christ had borne my judgement, and all was gone from before the holy eye of God forever, I said it was beautiful; it was profound blessing—but then when I looked at myself I was not a bit happy. The fact is, at the time I was trying to improve the “flesh,” the “old man.”

    For deliverance from the reign of the Adam-life you must have more than justification; you need to see that the old man is gone (permanently powerless concerning damnation - Rom 8:1; and permanently powerless concerning domination - Rom 6:12, 14—NC) from your eye, as clearly as you see that it is gone from God’s eye. It must be by the Spirit and the Word that you learn it; it is only by the Spirit that you can see that it is judicially gone. Peace is that I see that my Adam-life is gone from the eye of my Father through the work of the Cross.

    It is clear that my conscience is truly awakened as to what is due to God, because of the sentiments of my new nature, that begin to find that “in me (that is in my flesh) dwells “no good thing”; and I long, as seeing what would suit me, to be delivered from the “body of this death” (Rom 7:24 - referring to “the body of sin” – Rom 6:6, along with its “members” – Col 3:5—NC) and not to now improve it, but to be delivered from it. It is then that I rise in delight of heart to the full work of the Cross. Nothing can afford me full freedom from the old Adam-life but the scriptural knowledge that my Father has removed it entirely from His own eye in the Cross of His Son.

    The Lord Jesus made Himself a sacrifice for sin, thereby removing it from before the Father according to the measure it was in His mind. He was made to be sin and suffered for it fully, because He alone knew what it was in God’s sight. Now as He has removed it according to God’s estimate, it is evident that it must be gone according to mine, however much my sense of it may increase.

    Therefore it is of immense importance that I should believe that God has removed in the Cross everything in me that could offend Him; that it is now judicially true for the believer that the end of all flesh (sinful nature—NC) has come before God. For then I am not only clear of it before Him through faith in Christ, but as the old man has been crucified with Christ, I have nothing to work on or improve. I have only to reckon it as in the place of death, where God has placed it.

    I must know that through grace I am in Christ before I can survey and apprehend the dignities of this great position; and as I do so, I begin to connect myself with the heavenly places. I cannot understand His glory until I have known His grace, and as I am enjoying His glory, I am in the place where He is. Thus the highest blessing is contingent on the apprehension of the fullness of His grace.

    - J B Stoney



    Excerpt from MJS devotional:

    “The Lord Jesus Christ is the Christian’s very life (Col 3:4), and the Holy Spirit dwells within our spirit to manifest Him (Rom 8:18), to work out all that is in Him and to reproduce Him in us. We must remember that there is something in the sight of God that is higher than work. There is Christ-likeness. That is our Father’s purpose, and it is His work.” -A.M.

    http://www.abideabove.com/hungry-heart/
     
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  2. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Satan's first doctrine was Once Saved Always Saved.

    Genesis 3

    2The woman said to the serpent, “From the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat; 3but from the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat from it or touch it, or you will die.’” 4The serpent said to the woman, “You surely will not die! 5“For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”





    Matthew 16

    15He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.



    Few verses later......


    21From that time Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised up on the third day. 22Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, “God forbid it, Lord! This shall never happen to You.” 23But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me; for you are not setting your mind on God’s interests, but man’s.”


    You think permanency of faith and salvation was clear to Peter here?




    Matthew 16

    24Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me. 25“For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. 26“For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? 27“For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS.
    28“Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”




    Nowadays a person is presented the Command of God, like Love God or Love neighbor. They sit there an weight it. Will this give me 500$ ? will this give me joy? Will this give me salvation?

    God says do this...... Doing that is not going to give you salvation.

    God says do this........ You are not going to earn anything, its not going to do nothing for you.


    There are those who only have their eye on WHATS IN IT FOR THEM. They look for their security and assurances of Life. Eternal or not.

    25“For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.



    The priority is the command of God. Love God, Love neighbor. You might not get salvation from this

    In fact as Jesus says :
    Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me.

    This might even COST YOU.


    The problem is people look at a command of God like some chore even punishment. That there is a "greater" reward for doing what God says. or worst you don't need to do anything God says, because it won't earn you anything.

    John 14

    15“If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
     
  3. Steven Yeadon

    Steven Yeadon Member
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    I have to interject. I honestly believe that one of the biggest problems in the modern American church is that too many people assume that they are saved when they are not.

    According to James 2:14-19 this is the easiest test in the world. Simply ask the Believer what good works they have done since becoming a Believer, or what good fruit they have produced. If they respond with something like "none really" or "well I don't really do such things often" then unless they gave a foolish answer you can lean in the direction of them being an imposter Christian. This probably sounds scandalous but James does not allow otherwise. I will even add that neither does the preponderance of currwnt evangelical theology allow for otherwise. For any person to ever say they do not have good works or good fruit, but claim to be a Christian is a terrible thing. This is because they will suffer a fate worse than those who never accepted the Gospel at all when they die for claiming to be a Christian when they were in fact beholden to the will of the evil one (2 Peter 2:20-22).

    I myself was an imposter Christian for twelve years. I had no good fruit. I even tried very, very, very hard to generate good fruit, but still had none. Eventually when I read 1 Corinthians 15 and realized that one day I will stand before Jesus, the Creator Himself, in a spiritual body risen in power like an angel to be judged, I knew the jig was up. I knew once and for all that I had to be saved or it was the end of the world for me. I would be confined to eternal torment with no way out at all from a blue lake of burning sulfur, having arrived in a world that made no sense and was beyond all dreams in a new body that was beyond all imagination. I knew this because I was in rebellion against a number of bible verses including Hebrews 11:1 as I was a "science and reason Christian" who denigrated faith. My life verse became Romans 10:9 and I became obsessed with letting people know that Jesus was my Lord and I became obsessed with trying to believe in my heart that God raised Him form the dead. Finally one night it clicked when I finally allowed myself to just allow myself to accept and feel all my doubts and take things on blind faith throwing away reason and science completely in my decision to believe He rose from the dead. That was eight months ago and I have never been the same man since.

    I also know a number of Believers that have stories like mine where they finally came to really change after they became a Believer and even led minsitries. Those stories make for gripping testimonies to me.

    Now, I'm going to go out on a limb because I need to be outspoken and blunt at my own church on this subject instead of being a coward, but the normal way of talking about this in church to be polite is to say that someone struggled with their walk as a Believer until one day they changed, were different, and really took the Gospel to heart.

    My response is simple: that is when that person was truly saved. This is because the bible tells us that we are not saved until we believe in our hearts Jesus rose from the dead (Romans 10:9), which implies heartfelt action when you read the Greek definition of the word for "believe."
     
  4. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    1 timothy 1
    5But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.

    God is love and God's goal has always been love, kindness and compassion.

    I recommend using 1 Corinthians 13 as a constitution to scriptures, doctrine and life.

    Anyone motivated by Love that is "agape" is motivated by God and doing the right thing. Where as the devil they call accuser for good reason motivated by fear, blaming, finger pointing and condemning others.

    1 Corinthians 13

    2If I havethe gift ofprophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.3And if I give all my possessions to feedthe poor,and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.


    Perfect faith and acts are not enough. Beyond the system of reward and consequences lies the realm of sincerity.

    What did you buy God for Father's day last year? Would that have been ridiculous? or to ask him over to breakfast for some coffee?

    There is realm of people who love everyone on earth like their own child. They take responsibility for all the wrongs done around themselves. Loving enemies isn't a chore or a test, its the reward itself. These people will die for anyone's sake. They are fearless. They would go to hell for any soul's sake.
     
  5. Steven Yeadon

    Steven Yeadon Member
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    utilyan,

    I think the heart of your interjection is this:

    For Paul and the Spirit are saying that the goal of their command to not teach false doctrine (1 Timothy 1:3-4) was to create pure hearts, good consciences, and sincere faith. Of course, the truth being that we should all have pure hearts (Matthew 5:8), good consciences (1 Peter 3:16, 1 Timothy 1:19, Acts 24:16), and sincere faith.

    Of course, I forgot something the Spirit taught me the other day when I posted. I was reading Galatians and it struck me that I was being very legalistic with how I was going about my life. In my head I was always going "do that!" or "don't do that!" but something felt wrong. Finally when I got to Galatians 5:14:

    For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."

    I was struck by what I had failed to do. I needed to start approaching doing the right thing as acting out of love for all of those I encounter instead of having an endless list of do's and dont's. This made things so simple but so difficult. However, it did do one thing, it started to create within me a sincere desire to actually do the right thing for others. I have a very, very long way to go to a true loving sincerity with my good works, but I see where I need to go now.
     
  6. NetChaplain

    NetChaplain Member
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    Adam and Eve only lost fellowship with God, not their union with Him. He still took care of them, just not in the same fellowship they once had. But this will be restored to them in the resurrection, because of the Lord Jesus.
    This was not an issue of faith, neither was it a faith issue when he verbally (in word only, not in truth because he always had faith in Christ's Son-ship) denied Him, but rather an issue of selfishness, e.g. self preservation.
     
  7. NetChaplain

    NetChaplain Member
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    Hi SY - Thanks for your sincere reply. It's my understanding that if one remains in the desire to believe in the Lord Jesus more than anything in their life, this is evidence that God has given them faith and salvation and it will eventually manifest so.

    Blessings!
     
  8. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    NetChaplain, It seems you put so much emphasis on salvation and assurance of belief that YOU are starting to DEFEND us from God.

    When God should be defending us from us, even from salvation and faith.


    Your posts theme all start off oh well guys this is how you finally know you got it, when you got this or that and this and that. Then your finally safe from God.


    I got two loving parents, Absolutely zero assurance they won't kill me today, no signed safety certificate, no treaty or promise.

    If I ever demanded any assurance I feel that would be a insult, or least obvious mistrust. God ought to be at LEAST in this inner circle.

    The absolute confidant to any problem in life ought to be our Father.


    Matthew 6

    26“Look at the birds of the air, that they do not sow, nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not worth much more than they? 27“And who of you by being worried can add a single hour to his life? 28“And why are you worried about clothing? Observe how the lilies of the field grow; they do not toil nor do they spin, 29yet I say to you that not even Solomon in all his glory clothed himself like one of these. 30“But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which is alive today and tomorrow is thrown into the furnace, will He not much more clothe you? You of little faith! 31“Do not worry then, saying, ‘What will we eat?’ or ‘What will we drink?’ or ‘What will we wear for clothing?’ 32“For the Gentiles eagerly seek all these things; for your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. 33“But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.
    34“So do not worry about tomorrow; for tomorrow will care for itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.
     
  9. Steven Yeadon

    Steven Yeadon Member
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    Thank you for your blessings NetChaplain. Also thank you for complimenting me on my sincerity.

    I'll begin by saying that in a way I really wish you were right on sincere desire to believe in Jesus always equaling salvation. The problem is that the bible tells us that this is not true. The key verse for me on this one is Matthew 7:21-23. These people plainly had sincerity to their faith, as they went out into the world to do good works on Jesus' behalf. However, they are sent to hell in the end.

    The reason this should not bother us is given just before this passage in Matthew 7:15-20. They may appear like good, loving sheep that sincerely love Jesus at first glance, but their inner world is evil and marks them as wolves among sheep. As such they cannot bear good fruit.

    I can definitely relate to this myself since my years as an imposter were those as a "lamby lamb of God" I thought. However, I was blinded to the fact that on my inside I was a wolf whose inner world was dark, terrible, and sinful. I surrounded myself with the unholy and engaged in sins that the bible says Christians do not commit.

    All that said, I'll stop and go over Roman 10:9, which is really my life verse I now see as it saved me. So if we confess to others with our mouth that Jesus is our Lord, which implies that we obey Him as our Master (Luke 6:46), and believe in our hearts, the seat of our will where we make choices, that God raised Him from the dead we shall be saved, which must be done on faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 3:21-24, John 3:16).

    Of course, evangelical theology at this point says that if we have genuine saving faith, then we will be a changed person, living a more more sinless life over time, who will in their own way contribute to God's will on earth by producing good fruit. I could go in search of numerous bible verses in the New Testament to support this theology, and I would say that it is a kind of proto-theology since the bible says so much more than this. If you want NetChaplain, I'll find all the verses in question and do a quick analysis of each.

    However, the point is that this is a check to make sure that one is saved. I like the way Peter puts it in 2 Peter 1:10-11 after he delivers a warning in 2 Peter 1:3-9 that echoes James 2:14-19. Simply put, we simply help people make sure their calling and election are sure for the alternative may be a fate worse than never being born at all as was the case with Judas (Matthew 26:24, Mark 14:21).
     
  10. NetChaplain

    NetChaplain Member
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    You'll need to be more clear of your meaning of "defending us from God, salvation and faith." I have an idea what you might mean but want to be more certain. Thanks.
     
  11. NetChaplain

    NetChaplain Member
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    I see your reasoning, buts it my acceptation that Christ in these passages revealed they were not genuine, as Gill comments:

    "Not everyone that saith unto me Lord, Lord,.... Not every one that calls Christ his Lord and Master, professes subjection to him, or that calls upon his name, or is called by his name; or makes use of it in his public ministrations. There are many who desire to be called, and accounted Christians, and who make mention of the name of Christ in their sermons, only to take away their reproach, to cover themselves, and gain credit with, and get into the affections and goodwill of the people; but have no hearty love to Christ, nor true faith in him: nor is it their concern to preach his Gospel, advance his glory, and promote his kingdom and interest; their chief view is to please men, aggrandize themselves, and set up the power of human nature in opposition to the grace of God, and the righteousness of Christ."

    For further explanations: http://www.christianity.com/bible/commentary.php?com=gill&b=40&c=7

    Many if not most (self included) has gone through their lives from youth on with God often in our thoughts and concerns, which always eventuates to seeing Him all along drawing us to Himself in Christ. This eventually manifests in our final understanding of not just a desire for Him more than anything, but an eventual relationship with Him, which is what I believe you have discovered.
     
  12. Steven Yeadon

    Steven Yeadon Member
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    That is a very valid interpretation and I will leave my argumentation aside. To me, I did go out on a limb to interpret Matthew 7:21-23 in the way I did.

    Here you sound like one of the leaders at my church, which I know is good. He reminded me of something very poignant when I became worried I could have wound up in hell in the end: "Well you're here aren't you." I realize that God has a plan for my life, and honestly I am trying to better understand His providence when it comes to my salvation. However, as another leader in my church told me: I was someone going to hell when I died for a very, very long time as person claiming to be a Believer but someone who exercised no real faith. To me this is vitally important to understand as I can only grasp the Grace and Mercy of God when I know that I, a wicked and deceived sinner, was saved from hell by Jesus Christ.

    I see that here there is a scriptural problem here that bears the need for research though: Do those who seek God always find God? I know for one that I didn't go seeking for God really as this verse sums up my experience:

    (Isaiah 65:1)
    "I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me; I was found by those who did not seek me. To a nation that did not call on my name, I said, 'Here am I, here am I.'

    As an atheist I didn't seek God hardly at all, yet He revealed Himself to me powerfully and drew me away from atheism forever.

    Again I'll research the bible and the internet to answer the question: "Do those who seek God always find God?" and post when I can.
     
  13. NetChaplain

    NetChaplain Member
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    Even if we mistakenly evaluate who we think we are and will be, God already knows who are those who will not "resist" "His drawing."

    Concerning seeking God, to me those that sincerely seek--sincerely find Him (Heb 11:6; also Mat 6:33; Psa 10:4, 69:32, 70:4, 105:3; Pro 8:17; Amo 5:4).
     
  14. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    The continuous theme I get from you is here are hints and clues you are in God's grace and assuredly safe. I expect your next topic to be "how does a believer knows if he believes"

    " Only when we know this truth " <-- Sounds like something a gnostic would say.


    There is no quality about you that grants you exclusive grace from God.

    You know the very best argument for once saved always saved would be
    "I met God and he told me everything will be alright."
    But I haven't heard that one from anyone.


    The other issue is this "salvation" focus. I can't really say a person trusts God if the first thing they bring up in every conversation is God is not going to kill them.

    Or that they are given a command by God, God puts his command right in their hands, They look at it in their hands and think, well this is worthless its not going to give me salvation, it won't even earn me 5 dollars.
     
  15. NetChaplain

    NetChaplain Member
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    I think we just have too much differences in our understanding and opinions, and if you could dispense with being accusative I wouldn't mind continuing to communicate!
     
  16. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Well of course I could be wrong, I didn't say as a matter of fact, but that is "what I get from you" and "It seems".


    Jesus on the cross did not say "well I think we have too much differences in our understanding and opinions"

    Perhaps I could suggest Title to your threads stating "THIS IS NOT A DEBATE".

    Because when we see a thread it says "Debate other denominations' doctrines/beliefs here."
     
  17. NetChaplain

    NetChaplain Member
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    Appreciate the reply, and I believe always being correct is the goal but will not be the practice because nobody is always correct on everything. The more important issue is that of being the motive for communicating, to find the truths concerning Bible doctrine and cooperate with one another in the love of Christ, regardless the issue (which I suspect is the same with you).

    I don't mind the debating, it's how we learn from one another, it's how we debate that has priority over the debating. Why what we do has precedence to what we do. We can be wrong but not go wrong! Being unknowingly wrong will always occur because of progressive learning, but if the motive is always God's love to one another through one another you can't go wrong!
     
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