Lords Prayer

In Matthew 6:12, in the 1534 Tyndale's
"And forgive us our trespasses, even as we forgive our trespassers."

The 1535 Coverdale's has
"And forgive us our debts [spelled "dettes"] as we also forgive our debtors."

 

Welcome to the BB. :wavey: :thumbs:

The word 'trespass' is found in the later KJVs, at least, in almost 100 places, but not in the Lord's Prayer, to my knowledge, although it does render 'trespass' immediately after this in Mt. 6:14-15.

The Tyndale does translate this as "trespass" in Mt. 6:12, and as well as in v. 14 & 15, ansd also in Lk. 11:4. So does the Wycliffe, originally, in Mt. 6:14.

Few, if any, modern versions render that as 'trespass' to my knowledge. atthough I have not done any detailed study on this part.

Ed

 

Luke 11:1-5 (KJV) --

And it came to pass, that, as he was praying in a certain place, when he ceased, one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples.
And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.
Give us day by day our daily bread.
And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.
And he said unto them, Which of you shall have a friend, and shall go unto him at midnight, ...​

Matthew 6:8-15 (KJV) --

Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as [it is] in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.​

The Greek word underlying "sin" in Luke is a completely different word than the one rendered as "debts". The Greek word underlying "indebted" does have a similiar root as the one rendered "debtors" in Matthew. The difference between Luke's and Matthew's wording could be explained if Jesus had originally spoken the prayer in Aramaic (the Aramaic word for debt also can be used to mean sin).

Evidently, earlier versions of 'The Lord's Prayer' in the Book of Common Prayer had "trespass" from which many English-speaking people would have learned to recite it.

 

As a kid I attended a Methodist church and I was a trespasser.

Later we moved and we began attending a Presbyterian church; I became a debtor.

It wasn't until high school that I was forgiven and I began attending a Baptist church. :smilewinkgrin:

Rob

 

Good one, Bro. Rob!!

 

:laugh: :laugh: :thumbsup:

 

OHHH>.. that was good!! I wanna use it!

 

Personally, I really believe that Matthew and Luke recorded two different sermons by Christ, though most of the content is the same. After all, what preacher has not preached the same message more than once? :smilewinkgrin:

Compare the locale in Matthew, "He went up into a mountain" (5:1), with Luke, "And he came down with them, and stood in the plain" (6:17).

So, the original Aramaic of Christ could have been different. He could have wanted to emphasize a different truth each time He preached His message "outline." :type:

 

Awww, thank ya,ll
Ya only like it cause of the Baptist part.

And that part's only partially true,

I attended a Swedish Covenent Church for the first two years (debtors) before coming out east here.

We Baptists rarely quote the Lords prayer in our services.
I don't even know if my kids could spit it out if I asked them too.

Maybe I'll start saying it at dinner prayer to get my 3yo grandson acquainted with it.

I've alway had a soft spot for the "trespassers" version, probably because that's the way I first learned it.

Rob

 

Neither - I don't understand prayer to be a recitation. When the disciples asked Jesus to teach them to pray, they were not asking for a set form of words to be repeated parrot-fashion.




I assume the second question only refers to the word "trespasses" in the Lord's Prayer. In that case, it is found in Tyndale's translation:

12 And forgeve vs oure treaspases eve as we forgeve oure trespacers.


​

The widespread use of "trespasses" would probably be a result of the fact that is was used in the Anglican "Book of Common Prayer" (1662) and in the 1928 American version of the "Book of Common Prayer".


If you were talking about the use of the word "trespasses" anywhere in the bible, not just in the Lord's Prayer, I would say that most versions use the word somewhere.

I hope that is helpful.

 

Well said, David. It's not a recitation, because Christ said, "After this manner pray...," not, "Pray this prayer." :thumbs: