Lordship Required for Salvation??

There are not two distinct salvations. That is a bad teaching that some have come up with. The Bible teaches only one salvation ... salvation from sin to God for eternity. The Bible does not separate salvation with respect to the millennium from eternal salvation. To have one is to have the other. The Bible is clear about this.

Rightly dividing the word of truth means to accept what it says, to properly interpret it, and then to apply it rightly. Romans was written to Christians, but has a great deal to say about unbelievers in sin, as is evident from simply reading it.

The Bible never talks about salvation by works. IT is a free gift with results in teh life of the recipient.

 

Yes it is a free gift that you must have works to keep, right? Or it is a free gift that automatically produces fruit in anyone who truly believed. Whatever you want to believe, your still looking to your works to prove you are saved. The problem is, I don't think your works could possibly meet the standards set forth in the bible to ever prove you truly believed. How good do you figure you have to be to prove you are saved?

 

IT is the latter, not the former. That is what the Bible teaches in numerous places.

Not to "prove." But we do look to our lives for assurance. That, again, is a biblical teaching.

The Bible very clearly teaches that continuing in the Christian faith is the evidence of salvation; falling away gives evidence that one may not have been saved. As has been often said, It is about direction, not perfection.

Our life can meet the standards of demonstrating true belief and giving us assurance of salvation. But don't confuse assurance of salvation with possession of salvation.

 

IT is the latter, not the former. That is what the Bible teaches in numerous places.

Not to "prove." But we do look to our lives for assurance. That, again, is a biblical teaching.

The Bible very clearly teaches that continuing in the Christian faith is the evidence of salvation; falling away gives evidence that one may not have been saved. As has been often said, It is about direction, not perfection.

Our life can meet the standards of demonstrating true belief and giving us assurance of salvation. But don't confuse assurance of salvation with possession of salvation. </font>[/QUOTE]I think you are overlooking some things in the bible, Larry. Like Matthew 5.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

so, is the righteousness of the scribes and pharisees the mark that we are to aspire to? No, Jesus sets it a little higher than that.

27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Well, that sounds a little rough, but maybe I can do it...

48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

I gotta be honest Larry, if our works are any evidence of our eternal salvation, the evidence points to the contrary in my case. I hope you are doing better than I am.

 

Matthew 5 was addressed to people who were depending on their own righteousness to get them into heaven. Strangely enough, that was the context of Rom 10, the passage this started with. If you are going to get to heaven, you have to be as perfect as God is. Fortunately, through the imputation of Christ's righteousness, we can have that perfection accounted to our lives. I am not depending on my righteousness to get me into heaven. I am depending on Christ's righteousness to get me into heaven.

However, the Bible says if any man is in Christ he is a new creature. It does not say he should be a new creature; it says that he is a new creature. John tells us that if you don't keep his commandments that you do not know him. Again, as I pointed out, the issue is direction. I could give passage after that passage that directly teaches that if we are truly saved, there will be evidence in our lives. If your life is not bringing forth the fruit of your relationship with Christ, then you need to figure out why.

 

The lordship of Christ is who he is. You can't separate his lordship from him being the Savior. He isn't one and only sometimes the other.

 

There you go. He is Lord. No denying it. The atheists can balk, the founders of religions can point to other gods, the legalists can require that he be lord and savior or not at all, there is no denying He is both to His people.

Again, it is not about us , it is about Christ .

 

Matthew 5 was addressed to people who were depending on their own righteousness to get them into heaven. Strangely enough, that was the context of Rom 10, the passage this started with. If you are going to get to heaven, you have to be as perfect as God is. Fortunately, through the imputation of Christ's righteousness, we can have that perfection accounted to our lives. I am not depending on my righteousness to get me into heaven. I am depending on Christ's righteousness to get me into heaven.

However, the Bible says if any man is in Christ he is a new creature. It does not say he should be a new creature; it says that he is a new creature. John tells us that if you don't keep his commandments that you do not know him. Again, as I pointed out, the issue is direction. I could give passage after that passage that directly teaches that if we are truly saved, there will be evidence in our lives. If your life is not bringing forth the fruit of your relationship with Christ, then you need to figure out why. </font>[/QUOTE]We are created a new creature when we are born again. Then we are told to put on the new man. It is not something that happens without our cooperation. If there is no fruit being manifested in a mans life, it is because he is not walking in the new man. he is walking after the flesh, and not after the spirit. The old man does not automatically go away when we believe.

11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

We still have to contend with our flesh, even though we are to reckon our flesh dead unto sin. Thats why Paul had to tell the Romans not to let sin reign in their mortal bodies. Sin still has power over their flesh, until their flesh is truly destroyed. But through Christ's death and resurrection, we are able to die to ourselves now, by bringing our flesh into subjection to the spirit, through the faith that if we suffer we shall reign.

Look at it from another point of view. In the old testament, we see that the inheritance of the father was given to the sons. The firstborn son, however, recieved a double portion of the inheritance.

Deuteronomy 21:17 But he shall acknowledge the son of the hated for the firstborn, by giving him a double portion of all that he hath: for he is the beginning of his strength; the right of the firstborn is his.

We are become a son of God when we believe(born again?), but in order to obtain the birthright of a firstborn son, we must obey Christ.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Firstborn among many brethren. Not made a son of God, but made firstborn out of many sons of God. To share in the millennial inheritance with Christ, that is the high calling for Christians. It is not to work for our eternal salvation. That is a free gift of a loving God who sent His ONLY Son to die on a cross for our sins so that whosoever would believe on Him would have eternal life. We are to seek the double portion of a firstborn son.

Revelation 3:21
To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

 

I think there is a huge diference btween a mesage that comes with the ulterior motive of get em saved and disciple them letting them know before they come forward what the cost of following Christ is.

I don't worry so much about people coming forward for whatever reason but rather about making disciples. If we do not make disciples then all we have is big babies who just get older but still remain babes on milk. Discipleship does not happen by sermons on accident but intentionally teaching them to be obedient by example and practice with them.

 

Was Peter saved when he denied Christ three times? Was Christ his Lord when he denied Christ three times?

 

Ok, Bob, I will leave you to play in your own little theological sandbox.

 

I believe that part of the reason for differences in opinion regarding Lordship Salvation, as some like to call it, is that Romans 10:9 is translated in three distinctly different ways in English:

1. the Lord Jesus (GB, KJV, NKJV, Young, Webster)
2. Jesus as Lord (ASV, NASB [with “as” in italics], Darby,)
2. Jesus is Lord (RSV, IE, NJB, NAB, NRSV, NIV, Weymouth, ISV, Williams, Montgomery)

Notice that some translations put Jesus is Lord in quotation marks, and that the Williams’ New Testament introduces the word fact.

--Geneva Bible
Romans 10:9 For if thou shalt confesse with thy mouth the Lord Iesus, and shalt beleeue in thine heart, that God raised him vp from the dead, thou shalt be saued:

-- King James Version
Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

-- New King James Version
Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

-- American Standard Version
Romans 10:9 because if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord, and shalt believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved:

-- Revised Standard Version
Romans 10:9 because, if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

--New International Version
Romans 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved

-- International English New Testament
Romans 10:9 If you confess with your mouth that “Jesus is Lord” and if you believe in your heart that God raised Jesus from death, you will be saved.

-- Transliterated Greek New Testament
Romans 10:9 Hoti ean homologeses en to stomatisou Kurion Iesoun kai pisteuses en te kardia sou hotiho Theos auton egeiren ek nekron, sothese.

-- New American Standard Bible
Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

-- New Jerusalem Bible
Romans 10:9 that if you declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and if you believe with your heart that God raised him from the dead, then you will be saved.

-- New American Bible
Romans 10:9 for, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

-- New Revised Standard Version
Romans 10:9 because {Or [namely, that]} if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

-- Young's Bible
Romans 10:9 that if thou mayest confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and mayest believe in thy heart that God did raise him out of the dead, thou shalt be saved,

-- Darby's Bible
Romans 10:9 that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord, and shalt believe in thine heart that God has raised him from among the dead, thou shalt be saved.

-- Weymouth's New Testament
Romans 10:9 that if with your mouth you confess Jesus as Lord and in your heart believe that God brought Him back to life, you shall be saved.

-- Webster's Bible
Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thy heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

-- International Standard Version
Romans 10:9 If you declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

-- William's New Testament
Romans 10:9 For if with your lips you acknowledge the fact that Jesus is Lord, and in your hearts you believe that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

-- Montgomery New Testament
Romans 10:9 Confess with your mouth "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God actually raised him from the dead, and you will be saved.

 

So it is suggested many are NOT SAVED because they called on Jesus to save them but not to be their Lord.

That is the issue. Are you saying I am not saved? </font>[/QUOTE]I am not saying that at all. I don't know you personally, but I would assume, when you pray, you call Jesus Lord or ask Him to be Lord of your life or some such prayer as that. But MANY people who claim to be Christians never ask Jesus to be Lord and never live like He is. They heard the preacher say something like, "Just come down the aisle, make the right decision. That's all you have to do." and they think that is the end of the matter.

But I think that a truly regenerate heart will confess Jesus as Lord. And I think that part of being saved is confessing Jesus as Lord. Jesus tells us that out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks. Well, a heart that is truly being led by the Holy Spirit will lead to a mouth that confesses Jesus as Lord.

 

In my opinion, confessing Jesus as Lord but not submitting to Him as Lord will result in greater damnation than never confessing that He is Lord.



OH! Oh! Here comes Dr. Bob. I better Run!

 

Bob, I don't think I ever saw an answer to this question. Care to comment?

Bob, Here is the question another way. If someone wants to be saved, but is unwilling to give up known sin, can they be saved? For instance, a guy comes and understands his sinfulness and Christ's death and righteousness and desires to be saved. He is living with his girlfriend and says "I know it is sin to continue in that condition, but I won't give it up. I will just get saved."

Can that be true salvation?

 

In 2 Corinthians 7:10 God tells us, "For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death."

I believe that repentance is the key to aceppting God's free gift of salvation. Anyone who refuses to repent of their sin is rejecting that gift.

Anyone who truly repents of their sins and accepts this free gift of salvation will, with the help of the Holy Spirit, make Jesus Christ the Lord of their life. Lordship is something that is learned as we grow in the Spirit of Christ, but repentance is a requirement for salvation.

 

How about unknown sin?

How balanced God is and when He knows just what I need when I need it. He doesn't dump the truck at once on me.