Lordship Salvation: Is it false?

Do you accept Christ's statement to Nicodemus that "Ye must be born again?" That means to be saved. Nicodemus accepted that command, repented of his sins, and was saved. The rich young ruler was unwilling to change the lord of his life (money) and went away forever lost.

 

RB wrote,

If JM believes that, why then do you also expect to hear, “Salvation is for those who are willing to forsake everything?”

That is NOT the message of salvation, by grace though faith in Christ alone!

This exemplifies why the detection of Lordship’s error is difficult for some to pin down. At times MacArthur writes in terms that are biblical and true to Scripture. Once you read how he defines his terms, such as we see in his definition of repentance which necessitates a resolve to a “change of behavior” you begin to see the commitment to works foundation that under girds LS.

There are many examples of Lordship’s departure from the biblical plan of salvation. MacArthur’s conditioning salvation on the willingness to forsake everything is one of those defining and radical expressions of Lordship Salvation that show us it is a works based message.


LM

 

The "discipleship imperative" appears in v.21, "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manisfested as having been wrought in God."

peace to youraying:

 

JM is a Calvinist, He believes that God chooses whom will be saved, this removes any possibility of works salvation.

The Lordship position as taught by JM is that upon regeneration (a change brought about by God) Salvation becomes so important that the regenerate will forsake all to obtain it.

Mathew 13:44 “The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and covered up. Then in his joy he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field.
45 “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant in search of fine pearls, 46 who, on finding one pearl of great value, went and sold all that he had and bought it."

God Regenerates
God Justifies
God Sanctifies
God Glorifies

Salvation is of God beginning to end. Even the ability to accept Christ as Lord is a gift from God. A gift you will possess if you are regenerate.

If you love anything in this world more than Christ, then you are not Saved, if you do not repent, turn from your sin and accept Christ as Lord, you will die and go to Hell.

If Christ is not Lord of your life, then who or what is? Can it save you from Hell?

Disclaimer: This is not an attack on anyone or their Salvation, just an opinion strongly stated.

Soli Deo Gloria

 

Assuming regeneration equals salvation, the highlighted part of your post, makes no sense, IMO.

If you "have it" already, why is there still a need to "forsake all" in order to "obtain it?"

Incidentally, I like the hat in your 'picture.'

"Durn varmits!! Praise the Lord, and pass the ammunition!" :thumbs:

Ed

 

RB:

Yes, happy to.

In commenting on this passage, John MacArthur writes,

That citation from the 1994-revised and expanded edition of The Gospel According to Jesus is a revision of what John MacArthur first wrote. In the original edition, John MacArthur states:

From his book Hard to Believe MacArthur wrote:

MacArthur wrote,

It is in his discussion of the rich young ruler. JM continues,

There it is in context: How to be born again, how to become a Christian is the subject. JM's answer, “Salvation (the requirement for eternal life) is for those who are willing to forsake everything...give Christ first place....” (TGATJ, p. 78)

That theme runs like a thread through all three editions of TGATJ. That may sound noble, but that statement defines a gospel of faith plus works.

RB, (Dr. Bob) Do you believe, “Salvation is for those who are willing to forsake everything?


LM

 

Regeneration, Justification, Sanctification and Glorification are different parts of the process of Salvation.

Regeneration is the " new birth" , being made alive or new.

Through Regeneration we are awakened so that we may respond to the call to Salvation. Similar to Christ calling Lazarus to come out of the grave. Christ not only commanded Lazarus to come out He also gave him the power to do it, He Regenerated Lazarus.

Regeneration causes us to realize our sinfulness and our need for Christ.

Justification occurs when we ask forgiveness of our sins,repent and accept Christ as Lord and Savior. We are then Justified in His sight.

Sanctification is growing in Christ, this is dying to the flesh and becoming Holy. It is something the Christian will do their entire life with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Glorification is receiving our Glorified bodies and enter the presence of Christ as a part of the Bride.

Salvation is now complete.

 

What John Macarthur himself says about the Lordship debate-

Introduction to Lordship Salvation


Clarifying the Lordship debate

 

I know what it means...thanks

I don't see "repented of his sins and was saved" in the text. Which Bible are you reading?

 

Ferron:

I my post above I cited JM in context from several of his LS books where he states and reiterates the same theme. I invite you to discuss this.

MacArthur states:

Do you believe this is an accurate interpretation of how the lost must be born again; be "willing to forsake everything?"


LM

 

Maybe we are finally getting somewhere, although I am still not certain. I wish I could say the above answer is 'clear', but unfortunately, I cannot, for it still seems to be loaded with all sorts of "wiggle room" in the explanation.

So despite your previously slyly expressed opinion of my own skills as an "exegete," - skills which I have never claimed, BTW, I will ask another question or three, following up on the above post.

Is what you are saying consistent with the view that I posted three times of Dr. John H. Gerstner, another 'advocate' of Lordship salvation, where he said these things, referring to Zane C. Hodges in The Gospel Under Siege? (My emphases)

Dr. Gerstner essentially repeats this, here (just in case you missed it, I assume):

I do not accept that ANY works, be they supposedly "meritorious" or "non-meritorious" are any "part of the definition of faith," which is very different from what should be the results of faith, which I believe everyone posting on these threads has agreed should occur, and in fact when works are falsely placed in the definition of faith, change the definition of believe/faith to "faithfulness'" instead, making 'faith' (and grace) a horse of a completely different color. (Rom. 4:1-8; 16a; 11:6; Eph. 2:8-9) Do you agree with Dr. Gerstner or me, and I have several posts that express my views, including some on repentance, in this, since the two positions appear to be, and in fact are, mutually exclusive. I do not particulartly care what Dr. John F. MacArthur, Lou Martuneac, Dr. James P. Boyce, Dr. Martin Luther, or Dr. John Calvin believe (Yes, both Martin Luther and John Calvin had earned doctorates), or 'the Savoy Declaration' or any other Statement of Faith declares here, but rather what ReformedBaptist believes.

This shouldn't be a difficult question that elicits multiple pages of response, IMO.

Ed

 

I assure you I do not mind "a bunch of Scripture on that subject" (or on any subject) in any manner, whatsoever. I do not care for what some other particular group's "Statement of Faith" says, when I am not addressing that group.

I also realize you would have answered my question, were it not that you likely had to prepare soup for the family's dinner, this afternoon.

Ed

 

This infers that man has no choice. Just because God knows ahead of time who is going to be saved and who is going to reject salvation does not mean he forces their hand. Man still has the choice to receive Christ or reject Him. There is no "forced salvation" with God. "Elect" as far as I understand the Bible never applies to the unbeliever, but only describes the believer.
Otherwise why the Great Commission? Why evangelize? God knows the elect. They will become Christians anyway. After all they are the elect are they not? They have no choice but to be saved whether we witness or not. As far as I understand your position, it negates the very reason one must carry out the Great Commission.

"Christ who causes us to be born again??"
Then why did he not cause the rich young ruler to be born again?
That wasn't very loving on His part was it? Especially when the Bible testifies about God that "He is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance." Your view seems to have a contradiction in it. Christ causes no one or forces no one to be saved. (some Muslims do). We make that choice. That is made clear in John 3:18. If we choose Christ we are not condemned. If we don't choose Christ we are condemned already. There is a free will, a choice to be made.
What Christ wrought on the cross is the grace that was manifest to us. His salvation was provided there on the cross of Calvary. But it was provided as a free gift for all who desire it. They must make the choice to receive. Man was made in God's image and likeness, which involves having that choice, that ability to reason.

This entire description describes a Christian, as does the word "elect." It has nothing to do with the unsaved. The context is not written about the unsaved. Peter is writing to the saved. The topic is not about salvation. Salvation is indeed a one time event. Sanctification is a life-long process.

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
--That is a one time event. It happens only one time in a person's life.
Sanctification is a life-long process.
We become God's elect after we are saved. But God knew about it before we were saved.

If your interpretation of this verse is correct why did Peter have to write it at all. He writes it as a command. We are to be obedient children. Many of them were not; they were disobedient. Just look back at the Corinthian Church. Many of them were disobedient, even coming to celebrate the Lord's Supper when they were drunk. They also were the elect of God. God also called them to a holy calling, but they were not being holy. This is a command; but not everyone was obeying it. Peter is giving encouragement, admonition. He is not saying that they were all in this state already. If they were there would be no purpose in even writing these things.

Our obedience to the truth is simply one of the evidences of our salvation.
See what John says:
1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

There is an "easy believism" philosophy. I also have my doubts about that movement. However, to say that "the one who does not forsake everything to follow Jesus are not the ones who will inherit eternal life," is a false statement.
How old were you when you were saved? When you were saved did you give up everything? Forsake family, friends, job, give away all your money, sacrifice absolutely everything to follow Christ? I doubt it. Why are you saying that it must be so for others when you do not impose those conditions on yourself?
We grow gradually as believers in the Lord. What did Jude say:

Jude 1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
--If you are already "perfect" what is there to build up?
If you are already going to forsake everything and mature enough to do, what would be left to be built up? Your position does not make much sense.
I have met some Christians that have forsaken all. But they weren't new Christians.

Again, a false statement. I wasn't baptized until two years after I was saved. According to your statement I am not saved because I wasn't a disciple after i was first saved. This teaching is false. It leaves no room for growth in a believer. In fact it would leave almost the entire Corinthian Church as unbelievers. :tear:

A Christian' life is a changed life. If there is no change it is doubtful that he is a Christian. That has nothing to do with discipleship.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
--1John 3 also explains the same thing. Those who habitually live in a lifestyle of sin are the same ones that are not born again. This has nothing to do with discipleship.

You left out a very important part of the verse. Why so?
Titus 2:12 Teaching us that,
The grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men teaching us...to deny ungodliness and live soberly and righteously, etc.
Those qualities are learned gradually. They are taught. They are not automatic. It "teaches us." Teaching is a process, and sometimes takes a long time, depending on the student.

But salvation is a one time event.

False. Show me how many, including yourself, how many on this board, have forsaken all, and I really mean all, in order to follow Jesus. I doubt if you will even find one percent. Not many Christians on the BB are there?

 

My comment in no way is designed to cast any aspersions about anyone's family, and the comment certainly doesn't have one earthly thing to do with Lordship salvation, by any stretch. (Incidentally, FTR, I do happen to cook in the kitchen more than does my bride (and am probably also better at it for a few more things than is she, although I don't do any of the outdoor grilling ), so I certainly see nothing wrong with any man cooking anything. And I am the one who "home cans" everything we preserve, as well, although she sometimes helps me to 'prep' the foods for canning.)

However, if one would really rather not answer the question, one excuse ("making soup") is just as good and works about as well as another, I would suppose.

I have recently previously twice posted the above quotes by Dr. Gerstner, but they seemingly were not deemed worthy of any response, by any of the readers, including yourself, and who happens to be a participant, of the thread(s)

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1270051&postcount=6

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1267712&postcount=57

whereon they were posted, and in fact, one time was the very person to whom I was directly responding (although I did manage to garner a couple of insults on the thread(s), effectively one or two false allegations by association [my supposed not believing in repentance (although I am on record on the BB, with at least ten posts showing I do believe that repentance is necessary for salvation), and my supposed notbelieving in 'Lordship' (another false allegation, for I, in fact insist that the Lordship of Christ is so clearly declared as to not even be an issue) and a questioning of my integrity, by another poster, along the way.]

I am not particularly bothered by the insults, FTR. But why is that there were no substantive responses to my queries??

The questions I pose seem straightforward enough, at least IMO.

Ed