Lordship salvation vs Easy believism

Well of course it is. What do you consider a person who has made Jesus Lord of their life? Someone who obeys Jesus 50% of the time, 60% of the time, 90% of the time, 99.94% (like Ivory Soap) of the time?

If no Christian obeys Jesus 100% of the time, then to what degree do they have to obey Jesus to be acceptable to him?

 

This is where your mistake occurs. Using your logic no one has ever made God Lord. God being Lord is not about perfection. It is about a desire for Him to ne Lord. Which is far different than just simply wanting a get out of hell card.

 

Nevertheless, with your view you have Jesus saving a person based on works. And under your view there is no way for any person to know they are saved.

Am I being obedient enough for Jesus to save me?

I don't know how any Christian could not be plagued with this doubt if your view is correct. A person would always be worried that they were not being obedient enough to be saved. And I would imagine that a person would be filled with despair when they fall in sin which we all do at one time or another.

If I had to worry about how obedient I was to be saved, I would probably give up in despair. I got saved as a young boy and most of my sins and certainly my most serious sins have occured since that time.

No, I believe what Jesus said, he said that whoever comes to him he will accept and not cast out. He didn't require me to be sinless when I came, he took me just as I was, a sinner. I believe his promise.

 

I did not say anything about having to worry about being obedient. Seems to be an intentional misrepresentation of what I said.

 

Where did I say you said a person would have to worry? I did not say you said that.

I am one who said that and it is the logical conclusion of your view. If a person must do more than sincerely rely on Jesus to be saved, but must make a commitment to obey Jesus as Lord to be saved, then how could a person ever be sure they are saved unless he is 100% obedient to Jesus?

If no man is ever 100% obedient to Jesus, then how obedient do they need to be to be saved?

So please, answer that question, how obedient does a person have to be to be truly saved?

 

It is a non sequitur.

How obedient does a saved person have to be for God to be Lord of their lives?

 

I understand what Winman is getting at:

What is the criteria of a demonstration of "Lordship" in ones life?

Is there a checklist (scriptural or otherwise)?

What is is that I must do to prove to God, myself, others, etc to know for certain that I have made Jesus Lord of my life

Do I have to prove it?

As I said before, believing in Jesus comes naturally (actually spritually) to me, I don't need to try, it's like digestion, it just happens.

It's the mortifying of the flesh that's the part that is not easy for me.

There is a passage of scripture that does indicate that this is the normal experience for the children of God:

1 John 5

4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?​

IMO "easy believism" is a confusing misnomer.

"Phony believism" IMO is better a better phrase to describe those who have only given intellectual assent to Christ and "walked the aisle" which apparently is possible without actually having the "faith" of 1 John 4 the source of the power of the "overcomer".

What is the difference in giving intellectual assent to Christ without faith and claiming Him as Lord without faith?

What good did it do for these people?

(Notice the koine emphatic Lord, Lord).

Matthew 7

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

HankD​

 

Ask the same of faith. The problem is you are holding Lordship to a different standard than faith. It is all the same package. You cannot have one without the other.

 

Do you always answer a person by asking them the same question they asked you?

You are the one who insists that a person cannot be saved by simply trusting Jesus to save them, not me. You insist they must also make Jesus Lord of their life to be saved.
So how obedient to Jesus must they be?

Are you 100% obedient to Jesus at all times?

 

In order to ignore that I have shown your point a failure and dealing with that you just repeat yourself. Your question is a non sequitur.



But even if you separate Lordship from salvation how obedient do you have to be in order for God to be Lord? The answer to your question disproves your own point.

 

Faith is not the same as obedience. Moses certainly had faith in God, but he killed a man. He also lost his temper and struck the rock when God had commanded him to speak to it in Numbers 20. God did punish Moses for his disobedience, he was not allowed to enter the promised land, but he did not lose his salvation.

Even John the Baptist who Jesus said was the greatest natural man that ever lived doubted God the Father and Jesus. The Holy Spirit had told him that whoever the Holy Spirit came down like a dove upon was the promised Saviour. John saw the Holy Spirit descend upon Jesus. But later when he was in prison he questioned both the Father and Jesus.

Luke 7:19 And John calling unto him two of his disciples sent them to Jesus, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another?

John had been told the Spirit would descend upon the Christ like a dove and John had seen this with his own eyes. Now he is questioning God, for all practical purposes he is questioning whether God is a liar.

Was Moses always obedient to God? No. Was John the Baptist? No.

Are you better than they?

So, if no man is 100% obedient to Jesus, then there must be a degree of obedience that God accepts as a person making Jesus the Lord of their life.

And I am simply asking you, how obedient do you have to be for Jesus to be the Lord of your life?

 

Let me help you out. Obedience is a result of Lordship not Lordship itself.


And to help you out further your question is not valid, it is a non sequitur, it is irrelevant, it shows your misunderstanding. And if you will go ahead and answer your very own question it disproves your position.

 

You may think you are being clever, but it is obvious you are avoiding answering the question. It is not a non sequitur, look up the definition.

Non sequitur

An inference or conclusion that does not follow from the premises or evidence.

I have not implied anything, or made any conclusions whatsoever, I have asked you a question, which you have so far refused to answer.

Don't say I have inplied a person must be 100% obedient, I have not. I have showed examples of men who clearly tried to obey God as Lord of their lives, but sinned on occasion. If I am implying anything, it would be that a person does not have to be 100% obedient for Jesus to be Lord of their life.

And scripture supports this, Paul spoke of his problems with sin. He said even though he desired to obey Jesus, he often failed and disobeyed. Do you believe Jesus was the Lord of Paul's life?

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Paul had a constant battle with sin in his life, he said so. Are you better than he?

 

The question is a result of your non sequitur. Therefore you continue it by asking your question. I have exactly refused to answer it as have you. Your question is irrelevant and I do not entertain attempts at traps. present your position or point that you are trying to make (however irrelevant it is) and be up front instead of this childish game you want to play.

 

I would say I would be under the easy believism. Believe is all that it takes to be saved, nothing else. Lordship will come after salvation. Believe in Jesus Christ as your Savior is all it takes to be saved, repent keeps one in fellowship. So much happen as we grow after salvation.

 

I am glad you recognized you are trapped, because you are. :thumbs:

You cannot truly say Jesus is Lord of your life if you disobey him and sin. Oh, Jesus might be Lord of your life for the majority of the time, but those times you choose to disobey and sin he is not your Lord at those times.

So, seeing how all men sin, even great men of God like John the Baptist, Moses, and Paul, if Lordship Salvation is true then there must be a degree of obedience where a person has made Jesus Lord of their life.

This is no different from which many religions teach. Many teach if you are a little more good than bad, say 51% versus 49%, then you are saved.

This is nothing but works salvation, determined by your conduct and behavior, not trusting Jesus 100% to save you from your sins.

 

Again you put words in my mouth. I said not such thing. You need to go back and reread it. But at least you admit your childish game and have not been willing to be upfront. This is a debate tactic to win rather than discuss the truth and is immature.

You could have just said this up front and gave supporting evidence rather than play your childish game. And this is completely false. As I said God Being Lord is not about being 100% obedient. It appears you think no one has God as Lord. That is the reason for our disagreement. Obedience is a result of God being Lord not Lordship itself.

 

You are the one who brought up traps. I just said I was glad you recognized you are trapped. And you are.

If you consider presenting facts and evidence that refutes your view a trap, so be it.

I have been doing nothing but presenting evidence. I have shown a number of great men of God who did not obey God at times yet were saved. Was David being disobedient when he went in to Bathsheba? Don't you think he fully realized he was disobeying and sinning against God? And he continued in sin, he called Uriah home from war, tried to get him drunk so he would go in to his wife to cover his sin. When that didn't work he placed Uriah in the worst part of the battle and commanded his fellow soldiers to be withdrawn so Uriah the brave and faithful soldier would be killed. This was murder. David knew what he was doing and Jesus certainly wasn't the Lord of his life at this time.

Do you not think that David, a prophet of God did not know all of this was sin? Of course he did. He knew he was doing very serious sin but continued in it anyway. Was Jesus Lord of his life when all this was going on?

Samson was never godly. He disobeyed God by choosing a wife from the Philistines. His parents tried to talk him out of it and he wouldn't listen to them, disobeying the 5th commandment repeatedly. He was a gambler, and when he lost a bet he made he killed 30 men to pay the fellows he had lost the bet to. He deserted his wife, he went in to a prostitute.

Would you call that making Jesus Lord of your life?

Yet we know Samson to be saved, he is mentioned in Hebrews 11 called the "Hall of Faith". His great faith is spoken of by the scriptures themselves.

Heb 11:32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:
33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,

Where you err is not knowing the difference between faith and works. Faith should inspire works, but does not always do so.

You could be a terrible person, a liar, a thief, and adulterer, but you can have faith and trust your godly mother, even though your own behavior is terrible.

Faith in Jesus is relying upon his righteousness, not our own. Jesus never told a person they had to stop sinning to be saved, he told people to come to him to be saved "from" their sins. When you come to Jesus, you come just as you are, a filthy sinner. He saves you, and his righteousness is imputed to your account.

It is true that after saving you Jesus wants us to turn from sin, but that is sanctification, a long process that takes time. A person might smoke or have a drinking problem. They may sincerely trust Jesus to save them from their sins, but they are going to still have problems. It may take them some time to turn from smoking or drinking, and they may not be successful at all. That doesn't take away the fact that Jesus saved them when they came to him for forgiveness.

You do not understand the difference.

 

uh..no not trapped at all regardless of your poor attempts. Your very own question destroys your position.

Irrelevant

NO but then one has nothing to do with the other. And God is Lord of my life how about you?

I never said otherwise

And again this comes out of your incorrect and personal defintion of making God Lord.

No you work in almost seemingly dishonesty to narrow Lordship down to single individual sins rather then be willing to let it stand in its true definition of a total view of the life.


So what do you do with the following verses:

1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.


1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.