Lordship salvation vs Easy believism

The Centurion called Jesus Lord Matt 8:6

The disciples called Jesus Lord Mat 8:21

Two Blind men called Jesus Lord Matt 9:28

Were they intentionally lying?

Were they ignorant of what making God Lord is?

 

Isn't the issue how to become a saved believer rather than the life OF a believer. Lordship involves a time period of continued submission but saving faith is one act done and over. At the heart of it, what is the qualification to having eternal life, faith or submission to the Lordship of Christ? Submission is an ongoing process, I can't see how that can be the actual way initially to be saved.

Darren

 

How does Jesus say to be saved? He says things like "deny yourself, pick up your cross, and follow me"...that is not some simple decision. You are saved by repenting of sin, and placing your life in the hands of the LORD Jesus Christ...this is a one time thing, which starts a continual, life long process. However, there is an intrinsic, initial submission of self to the Lordship of Christ.

 

When someone was baptized they named Jesus as Lord. That was at a specific point in time. There are examples when a new believer was baptized immediately.

 

Lord

Many people back then was called lord in higher places of authority. Doesn't mean they really mean it in their heart. God knows our heart. It is God through Jesus that teaches us what to be believe and through knowing Him and His word being right we call Him Lord our God from our heart. It all starts with trust for it is them that the Lord God said that He will keep those who are meek and humble who trust in the name of the Lord, not those who wise and learned who God made a promise that He will hide the truth from.

 

Your Americanized theology is not in agreement with scripture in content or historical context.

So you think that when someone named Christ as Lord which meant they could have been executed or their businesses boycotted (many were) that that is a trivial matter and they may not have meant it in their heart?

 

Trust in the Lord

Zephaniah 3:12
But I will leave within you the meek and humble, who trust in the name of the LORD.

Luke 10:21
At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.

Romans 4:5
However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.


John 6:63
The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are Spirit and they are life.

John 14:24
He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

John 6
43"Stop grumbling among yourselves," Jesus answered. 44"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. 45It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.'[Isaiah 54:13] Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me. 46No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life.

1 Peter 2:6
For in Scripture it says: "See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."


Trust in the Lord is more important than anything without trusting in Him you wouldn't know what a righteous life looks like.

 

He also says to believe in Him, come to Him and those times (say John 6) He directly refers to eternal life.

So let me get this straight, one has to repent of ALL their sins first and IF they are successful only then can they exercise "faith" to believe in Christ and be saved? Isn't that putting the cart before the horse?

Maybe so but a new convert may not understand that from day 1. Furthermore it takes some living as a christian to develop an obedience to Christ just as they will take the rest of their lives knowing and understanding the word of God and God's written will for them to apply to their lives. Everyone wants true converts but its only God that truly changes them and makes them to want to obey and love Him.

Darren

 

He said sin not "all your sins".

I will ask you as I did another because of your view. What do you do with the following passages:

1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.


1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.


1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

 

Which sin? Some, a few, a lot, heaps...?? Can they be sure they have really truly repented? How do you test that? I'm not splitting hairs but making a point.

Ok, so do those verses apply to christians or non christians?? Which verse actually states repent "of your sins" and believe? How can one repent of their sins unless they are born of God?? If you try to make repenting of your sins an actual condition of salvation whilst one is still a non believer you'll be adding an extra hoop to jump through that the gospel does not have, seriously... :jesus:

Darren

 

Those verses say a Christian does not sin. How do you apply that?

 

A christian has 2 natures the born again new spirit and the old flesh nature, the flesh nature is responsible for the sins commited but the spirit nature does not sin. Compare -

1 John 1:8 - If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

I don't think John was contradicting himself at all.

Back to the issue those verses are for christians not non christians. Therefore it is the christian that is to REPENT not non christians. Therefore to repent of your sins and believe as a condition of entry into the new covenant and thus eternal life with Christ, has no place because the unregenerate carnal man does not want to obey God or repent of transgressing God's law, so even if they did they must turn to Christ anyway and believe.

Again I find no basis to think that making Christ your Lord as a condition to become a born again christian is part of the message of the gospel. If there was an order of events one must believe first and than those things will follow.

Darren

 

I don't believe repent is even in the book of John. I didn't think it was our sins that send people to hell, but their rejections of Jesus Christ as Savior.

I agree with you 100 percent here. One can repent or try and clean up and that might help him to see he is heading to hell which might have him look more to God but to be saved is faith in Jesus Christ as Savior, nothing more or less, believe.

 

Repentance is throughout the Bible. Biblical repentance for salvation is a change of mind. The change of action is an evidence of true repentance. in other works you don't have to stop sinning for a while before you get saved.

Our sins is what the lost will be paying for in hell. That's why we need a savior is because of our sins. You may be thinking that we go to hell because our sins are unforgiven because we never accepted Christ, which is correct. But it is still our sins that we were ever in need of being forgiven in the first place.

Repentance is part of Salvation, but repentance for salvation doesn't require a change before you are saved. You son't have to stop sinning in order to be saved. The change of action is an evidence that true repentance happened. That's the issue with this Lordship vs Easy debate.

 

On this we agree. Change will come after salvation but not the same on everyone, some will even back slide. I know from knowing myself and reading The Epistles of John, that I'm still a sinner and have to use 1 John 1:9 often.

 

It's all the same package?

So does that mean the package is Faith + Lordship + (who knows what)?

I would agree that when regeneration takes place all things become new including the ability to please God.

What seems so illusive to me is the inablity of those who espouse Lordship Salvation (so-called) to define just what it is and most importantly - when does the "Lordship" part happen?

I would contend for the faith by saying that Lordship is a voluntary act on the part of the believer post salvation to make oneself a living sacrice to God which is only reasonable seeing that He laid down His life in sacrifice for us.

To look to Him moment by moment by following the leading of the Spirit of God after we are saved.

To feed on His word and grow thereby after we are saved.

However, there is the carnal Christian of which kind the entire Book of 1 Corinthains is addressed. These walked after their flesh and it lusts.

The resultant outcome of overcoming this carnality and true Lordship is found in 1 Corinthians 13

1 Corinthians 13
1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.
2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.
4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up;
5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil;
6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth;
7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away.
9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.​

True Lordship is simply following the leading of the Spirit of God and maturing the spiritual nature we received at the rebirth and not adherence to a set of rules carved in stone or set in the ink of a manmade church covenant (though a proper church covenant it has its place).

Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,​

Galatians 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.​

John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.​

The order of events is fruit, more fruit, much fruit.

It takes time to grow and cultivate the fruit of the Spirit.

We are born carnal, babes in Christ.

1 Corinthians 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.​

To demand maturity of a babe in Christ is laying a burden on them which they may not be able to bear. ​

HankD​

 

Do those verses mean if you sin one little sin you are not saved? In your view?

 

I am of the impression that much of this ongoing debate concerning "Lordship Salvation" versus "easy believism" is a matter of semantics and a confounding of the terms of three elements of soteriology (Justification, Sanctification, Glorification).

HankD

 

I would agree with you here. While in seminary this Lordship salvation came up and as it was taught way back then turned me away from the theology of the school I was at, glad this happen in my last semester or I would not have made it. I don't think we need to add anything to salvation, believe works just fine and it is correct. Much change should come after salvation if we follow the Holy Spirit and study the Scriptures.

This was the point that hit me right between the eyes on this subject. I've seen carnal
Christians that while they were carnal, one could not tell the differences between them and a lost person.

 

Armchair theology in America too.