Lordship Salvation

OK. That is much better. I now understand where you are coming from. From your perspective,

• Heb. 6 teaches that the opportunity for enlightenment comes only once.

• All those who believe Christians can lose their salvation believe they can return.

• Returning would require subsequent enlightenment.

• Therefore Arminian theology does not hold up under scrutiny

Your first two premises are incorrect and the result is an incorrect conclusion that has absolutely nothing with what I believe and have been arguing for.

 

Dear friend,

You are making a very broad and sweeping statement here that is not true. Whether or not Christians who have lost their salvation can regain it or not has been argued for 18 centuries. The Scriptures explicitly teach in many places that it is possible for a person who was once saved to subsequently fall completely from grace. There is only one passage in the entire Bible that seems to say that those who have completely fallen from grace can not be renewed again to repentance,

Heb. 6:6. and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

and the word “impossible” and what it means here has been the subject of very much discussion. Personally, I take it quite literally, as you apparently do, and therefore I am one of the many who believe Christians can lose their salvation AND believe they can NOT be saved again. The correctness of the first of these two beliefs is obvious, both scripturally and historically; the correctness of the second is much less obvious and I would not stake my life on it.

There are many scholars who would agree with this statement; there are many more who would not. Personally, I would agree with it.

Some Arminian theologians do, others do not. And, of course, there are very many theologians who believe that one can fall from grace who are not Arminians.

Oh no! There’s that word “special” again. Where do you get that from? Anyway, I personally agree that it is a one-time opportunity, but it IS a VERY common opportunity, one that is afforded to very many millions of people, and I certainly would not call it “special.”

 

Craig, thanks for the "enlightenment." I guess I have been part of a denomination for a long time that believes in “once saved, always saved,” and I haven’t been exposed to this type of Arminianism you just mentioned. I didn't know there were so many Arminians who believe that it is impossible for Christians who lose their salvation to get it back again. Pardon my ignorance there. Which denominations or groups hold to the “once saved, later permanently lost” view that you describe?

In regard to the word “special,” perhaps I use it a lot because I grew up in the South where we have a lot of lunch specials. (Chuckle) Anyway, I like to use it in regard to conviction to distinguish a one-time event from multiple common grace events. The decision to swallow the Living Bread (to commit one’s life to Jesus’ control) is the culmination of a process. This process could last for many years. There could be many preparatory events—events still in the realm of common grace—that make the non-Christian intellectually and emotionally ready for the one-time, special conviction event (the “tasting” in Hebrews 6:4-5). Such events could include many worship services, one-on-one witnessing encounters, or other experiences which prepare the non-Christian for the climactic special conviction event.

During this period of time when readiness increases as a result of preparatory events, the non-Christian will attempt to continue with his normal lifestyle and will commit sins of ignorance due to his depravity (disposition to sin). He will resist the preparatory events. At the time of Paul’s conversion Jesus said that it was hard for Paul to “kick against the goads” (Acts 26:14), a description of his earlier resistance to common grace. When the elect non-Christian experiences the climactic special conviction event, however, he will sense that an ultimate, final decision needs to be made about accepting Jesus as his Lord. At that time he may procrastinate about making the correct free will decision. Temporary procrastination is not the same thing as an ultimate, final rejection. At some point, however, temporary procrastination can end with the permanent, willful decision to neglect the salvation that was once available.

The author of Hebrews asked a rhetorical question regarding this type of willful neglect (Hebrews 2:3a): “How can we escape if we neglect so great a salvation?” The Greek word for “neglect” ( ameleō ) is also used in Matthew 22:5 to describe those who “paid no attention” to an invitation to a wedding feast. In Matthew 22:3 we find that these people were “unwilling to come.” Thus, this type of neglect of the gospel is a willful, unpardonable sin.

There is no ultimate, final rejection of Christ during and after the preparatory events (common grace events), but neither is there an acceptance of Christ as Lord. Potential detours from the road leading to destruction may be ignored or resisted. Also, the entire plan of salvation may not be presented during the preparation events. For instance, during the first event an atheist may be presented with plausible arguments for both the existence of God and the truth of the Bible at the same time that he hears the plan of salvation. At that particular time, however, he will not yet be ready to commit his life to Christ. He continues on his way, and he may next fully realize that true Christianity is not an “intolerant” religion in one sense, but he is still not ready to commit his life to Christ. He continues on his way and is presented with the final warning. This special conviction event is the climactic divine appointment God has scheduled for every elect non-Christian.

For the past two years I have written many long letters to an agnostic who seems to oppose all organized religions. We write to each other about once a month. I try to deal with all the intellectual and emotional barriers that have been erected against true Christianity in his life. I see these exchanges as preparation events. I am hoping that he will soon surrender his life to Jesus in repentance and faith during a special conviction event. In his case, however, many preparatory events are apparently needed before he will have that opportunity.

God has known for eternity that the elect non-Christian in response to a final warning will surrender to Jesus in repentance and faith. God has also known for eternity that non-elect non-Christians in the same situation will not heed the final warning and will thus receive condemnation rather than salvation.

 

I did read Hebrews 6:4-6 several times in the past.

I am not Calvinist or Arminianist either. But, I agree with Arminianists on many areas than Calvinists.

I agree with arminianists, they believe a person who were once taste of salvation, then later lose it because of unbelief and turn away. But, a person can repent of sins and turn back to God again.

I better make an outline on Heb. 4:4-5 to show you more clear:

1. "who were once enlightened"- vs. 4
2. "have tasted of the heavenly gift" - vs. 4
3. "were made partakers of the Holy Ghost" - vs. 4
4. "and have tasted the good word of God" - vs. 5
5."the powers of the world to come" - vs. 5

Verse 4-5 telling us, it is impossible for them who ONCE taste of salvation.

I heard calvinists & osas argue: 'they were not saved in the first place'.

Luke 8:13 tells us, a person DID received the gospel, and believed it but for a short time, then fall away.

Verse 6 says, "IF they shall fall away, to REnew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

It tells us, if any person fall away, a person have to repent of sins and saved again.

In Luke 15:11-32 telling us, a prodigal son can be saved again by repent.

I believe any person who was saved in the first place3, did walked with Christ for a while then turn away for a while, then a person repent of sins to Christ again, to saved again.

IF, a person who was saved in the first place, turn away, remain in sins and dark, not confess of sins or repent all the way to death, then a person will remain lost and go into everlasting fire.

A person still chance to repent of sins while live, but if once a person death, afte that, there will be no other chance to repentance of sins.

Luke 15:11-32 is a perfect example for us about repentance and salvation too.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

DeafPosttrib, thanks for your comments. You said that the rocky soil refers to a saved person who believed for a short time. I think the rocky soil's belief was only intellectual assent. It was not true saving faith. The "rocky soil" person was never willing to surrender his life to Christ in repentance and faith. Luke 8:13 mentions that the “rocky soil” people have “no firm root.” In contrast, Christians are described in Colossians 2:7 as “having been firmly rooted,” and they are described in Ephesians 3:17 as being “rooted and grounded in love.”

You said the following about Hebrews 6:6:

The verse says, “It is impossible to renew them again to repentance.” Whatever they have, if they lose it, they cannot get it back.

You said:

My impression from the parable is that the prodigal was lost only one time.

 

koreahog2005,

Your description of the salvation process is very different from what I experienced leading up to my own salvation, and very different from what I observed in others during the six years that I served as the pastor of an inner-city church, and very different from what I have observed and studied as both a student and a teacher. Personally, I believe that the over-simplification of the salvation process results in serious misunderstandings of what God is doing in the lives of those to whom we are ministering. Furthermore, I believe that the supposition that every human being is either elected to salvation or not elected to salvation and that this election has been unalterably determined even before the person was born undermines the very core teaching in the Bible of both the nature of God and the nature of man.

The writer of the Epistle to the Hebrews went very far out of his way to make it explicitly clear that he was writing of those who are truly saved. He did this by using the five most common expressions used in his day to describe the man who has been saved. And we know for a fact from the study of the history of the interpretation of this epistle that the author’s words were very well understood until the 16th century when very much confusion arose regarding the doctrine of election.

The horrible confusion that Calvin and others of his day fell into regarding election made it necessary for them to invent radically new interpretations for Hebrews 6 and hundreds upon hundreds of verses in the Bible. Prior to the confusion over election, no sane man would have every dreamed of writing that the writer of the Epistle to the Hebrews was referring in chapter 6 to those who were not yet saved. Such a teaching is absolutely preposterous and contrary to fact.

We can reduce this matter to an either/or situation:

• The Ante-Nicene Church Fathers and the rest of the Church for 1500 years correctly understood the New Testament to teach conditional security, a doctrine which categorically refutes Calvin’s views of election.

Or

• Calvin saw in the Scriptures what no man had seen before, that man is either elected to salvation or he is not, and the hundreds of scriptures that for 1500 years had been interpreted to teach otherwise had been radically misinterpreted for that entire time.

If this latter view is correct, the Bible was written using such abstract and mystical language that for anyone today to think that he understands any of it means that he is an arrogant, pompous fool.

If, on the other hand, the former view is correct, the Bible was written using such clear and concrete language that it was not only generally understood for 1500 years, it was written using such clear and concrete language that it is continuing to be understood by the large majority of theologians and other believers in spite of the errors of Calvinism.

 

I would agree and disagree. A person who is born again is of the elect. Regarding predestination: God has predestined us to be conformed to the image of Christ not salvation. God’s will is that none perish. However conditional security does not exist. Once secure it cannot be unsecured. Salvation is secure in Jesus Christ. Nothing we do can secure or unsecure that fact. However the condition we need to make is after the condition of salvation in Jesus Christ was secured by Christ himself. Because salvation in Jesus is secure we must meet the condition God places upon us and that is faith. In Eph. 2:8,9 Grace is God’s part and faith is ours. Even in the OT they were able to please God by faith and await that eternal salvation by faith in Christ.

I don’t agree with Calvin exclusively nor do I agree with conditional and unconditional security. It does not exist. Salvation has been secured. Now it is up to us to respond to God.

In Jn 3:16 my salvation was already secured before I was born and my eternal security is not conditioned upon Christ’s death. It is unconditional. Once I have responded to God’s call that response is no longer conditional but rather God disciplines me to perfect me.

God is not in the business of squeaking people buy just enough to get them into heaven but rather being sold out for Jesus.

I see salvation as secured but my response is conditional. But that response does not make salvation conditional but unconditional. It is my response that is conditional. One I have made that response to God my security cannot be conditional again. We cannot sacrifice Christ over and over again. He died once.

To have a theology of conditional security is weak because it assumes people are weak and are not capable of making a permanent commitment to God. I think that presents a weak theology of conditional acceptance by God and a weak theology of God’ acceptance of those who are His. Most parents are troubled by a child who makes a poor decision. That child will face the consequences of a poor decision. But still the same that child is still a part of the family. So it is with us. Not one of us continually do good and never sin.

Eccl. 7:20, “Indeed, there is not a righteous man on earth who continually does good and who never sins.”

If one takes a look at the history of the early church and even Peter, we see people who appear to deny Christ but later repent. I see that as though they appeared to deny Christ the Holy Spirit still pricked their heart and they repented. No doubt Peter knew right away what he had done was wrong. That is the way I see eternal security.

I am a firm believer that too often we look at the minute picture when God looks at the big picture of a person’s life. He does the work to perfect them in spite of their weaknesses because they are His. God disciplines His own. It may not always make sense to us but it does to Him. Even the righteous sin and do things that seem awful like Abraham did with his wife, when Moses killed a man and David had a man killed. But God knows. Shall we sin that grace may abound? Absolutely not. Even though grace abounds when we sin, we still must repent and then flee from sin.

 

Craig, you said the following:

I do not quite understand you here. Are you saying that when the Bible speaks of elect people it is speaking of a group rather than individuals? God has foreknowledge of everything we will ever do. Doesn’t He know whether individuals are elect or not? Also, please let me know which denominations and groups hold to your “once saved, later permanently lost” view of apostasy. I’m really curious about that.

Gb93433, you said the following:

How can the elect be predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ (Romans 8:29) without also being predestined to be saved (Ephesians 1:5)? It seems to me that the two are connected.

 

I do not believe it is appropriate for men to say God knows this or God knows that. We, as men, do NOT know for sure what God does or does not know. There are hundreds of passages in the Bible that at least strongly suggest that men have made decisions that God had no prior knowledge of. The mere fact that in hundreds of places in the Bible God told men not to do this or that, or to do this or that, indicates to any man of reason that these men had the option of obedience or disobedience, and that their choice was neither predetermined nor foreknown. For the creature to say of the creator that He is omniscient and therefore not sovereign but obligated to know everything, whether he chooses to or not, is the most extreme example of arrogance that I am aware of. God is not a “Ken” doll that man is free to dress to suit his own fancies.

It is known from Scripture that those who have been elected by God can and sometimes do fall from grace. The very fact that they are repeatedly warned over and over again of the dangers of total apostasy is by itself proof that it is possible, but in addition to that we find in the scriptures explicit statements that falling from grace is possible. Unless the writer of the Epistle to the Hebrews was using hyperbole, or writing that the efforts of men, as opposed to the power of the Holy Spirit, can not renew fallen men to repentance, we see that those elect of God who have fallen can not be restored to the state of election.

Within all the mainstream denominations that teach conditional security there are those who teach that those who have fallen can be subsequently renewed (based on one or more of the several interpretations of Heb. 6:6 that allow for this), and those who teach that those who have fallen can NOT be subsequently renewed. Among those who teach conditional security, this has been debated ever since Tertullian raised the question.

 

Eph. 1:3-6, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.

Look at verse four for what purpose he chose us.

 

I think the critical key to the interpretation of Heb. 6 is who the letter is written to. I agree with you on that in what you wrote earlier. Another point is in 2 Peter 2:20-22, "For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A dog returns to its own vomit ," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."

 

I've been reading some of your discussion on Lordship Salvation, both in this thread and the other one. I'm really confused by it. I've doubted my salvation just about all my life. I've prayed countless times asking God for salvation & I have no assurance. Do I have to submit to the Lordship of Christ in order to be saved or do I just accept Him as my savior? Then there's the question about repentance. Some say repentance & faith are on opposite sides of the same coin. Then there are those who say the two are different from one another. I've been worried and depressed over my eternal destination for some time, especially since my Mother died last year.

 

Brother Dwane,

If your faith is in the finished work of Christ then don't worry. Don't look to your own "repentence". It will always come up short. (Unless you are proud, which is a sin.) Absolute assurance can be based only on simple belief in the atoning blood of Christ, the absolute perfect works of our saviour on Calvary. You can't EVER "submit to the lordship of Christ" without the indwelling of the Holy Ghost and that comes only at salvation, never before. Lordship "salvation" puts the cart before the horse. (Or at best puts the horse up in the cart.)

I pray you rest tonight in the blessed assurance of salvation, covered by the precious blood once and for ever.

God bless, lacy

 

Dwayne,

Don't worry. I agree with Lacy. You doing fine. Long as you keep confess to Jesus Christ for forgive all your sins - 1 John 1:9. Christ is not long to chasten you. Or, if you stopped confess sin to Christ, and stopping pray or stopping walk with Him. Christ would doing something with you as chasten your life. But, trust in the Lord, long as you keep on confess your sins to Christ often as you can, you would be fine.

Being worry is a sin. You have be confidence in Jesus Christ. Christ glad to hear your prayer, because He loves you soooo much! He always ready to forgive your sins all the times. He would never leave you forever, long as you keep on confess your sins to Christ faithfully, you are fine.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

This passage in 2 Peter is clearly talking about people who had not only been saved from the consequences of sin, but sin itself through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Jesus himself spoke of this very thing,

John 8:32. and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
33. They answered Him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, 'You will become free'?"
34. Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.
35. "The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever.
36. "So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed. (NASB, 1995)

But as the pastor of an inner-city church I learned very quickly that there are those who have trampled under foot the Son of God, and have regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which they were sanctified, and have insulted the Spirit of grace.

Heb. 10:29. How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
30. For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE."
31. It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God. (NASB, 1995)

 

Dwayne,

Welcome to the Baptist Board!

Dwayne, I do not believe that you would have prayed asking for salvation if you did not believe in Jesus. And Dwayne, Jesus died in your place because you, like all of us, have sinned, and the wages of sin is death. Jesus paid the price for your sins. He already did that, we don’t have to ask him to save us; we just have to believe in him and trust in him to be our Lord and our Savior, and He even helps us to do that!

Having said that, I would like to share with you my testimony. It is a bit long, but I believe that it might encourage you.

My testimony

I didn’t get saved until I was 25—because I didn’t need to be saved. I had never smoked a cigarette, I didn’t drink, take drugs, or swear—and I was a virgin because I knew that sex outside of marriage was immoral. I was studying to be a teacher because I loved people and enjoyed helping them learn.

One night when I was almost 25, four teenagers—a 14 year old boy named Gary, a 15 year old girl named Jeanie, and two others—invited me to come with them to a Christian youth service. I felt very badly for these kids, since they were Christians, and went to the youth service with them believing that if I could help just one kid to escape the snarls of Christianity it would be worth my time.

I had never been to a Christian youth service before, and boy was I surprised when I walked in the door! There were about 75 kids packed into the living room of an old house next door to the church—and they didn’t even have the courtesy to provide chairs—we all had to sit right on the floor. I found a spot along a wall where I could at least lean back and get some comfort, and I looked around the room. There was a fat lady about 40 years old sitting in the one chair in the room, and there was this guy about 37 standing up talking to some of the kids. I learned that his name was Ken and that he was in charge that night.

After a few minutes, Gary and Jeanie and some of the other teenagers got into a little group with some guitars and tambourines and began to sing a song that went something like this:

Shackled by a heavy burden,
'Neath a load of guilt and shame;
Then the hand of Jesus touched me,
And now I am no longer the same.

Refrain

He touched me! He touched me! And O, the joy that floods my soul. Something happened, and now I know; He touched me and made me whole!

Since I met this blessed Savior;
Since He cleansed and made me whole,
I will never cease to praise Him
I'll shout it while eternity rolls.

Refrain


It was a cute song, but I certainly wasn’t underneath a load of guilt and shame because I was not guilty of anything, and I had nothing to be ashamed about.

They sang some more cute songs, and since I loved kids, I enjoyed their performance—but then they quit singing and began giving their testimonies—and that was a bit much—especially when they cried half way through them. They testified how sin had wrecked their lives and Jesus had saved them and put their lives back together—and I could tell that they were so brainwashed that they really believed the stories they were telling. As it turned out, I didn’t get a chance to say anything, and my being there was a waste, except that the refreshments were good and I enjoyed being in the company of the kids.

I started going to a Christian coffee house several night a week where during the Bible studies I could occasionally express my ideas. I was very embarrassed to be in such a place, however, and when they asked me my name, I told them it was none of their business—and they named me Charlie Brown.

I continued going to the Christian youth services at the Assembly of God church and began to get acquainted with the kids there. This one 17 year old girl, Laurie, was really nice, but I could tell that she was damaged goods. We got to talking one night and she told me that sometimes she can’t come to church because her parents punished her by forbidding her to go to church. I stood out like a freak, but the kids were really nice to me, except that I found out that they were praying that I would get saved.

This went on for a few months—the kids were really nice to me, but some of the adults were beginning to show definite signs of hostility—and then it happened. On a Sunday night I found myself being physically escorted out the door.

However, the associate pastor, who was also the leader of the youth group, came to my rescue and brought me back inside and told the others to pray for me. Before I knew it, the whole church was praying for me, and they continued to pray for me until a few minutes after midnight. Then the associate pastor asked me if I would like to accept Christ as my savior. I had enjoyed all of the attention, and listening to their prayers was a lot of fun, but as for getting saved—nuts to that idea. Jesus was no more real to me that the Easter Bunny or Santa Clause.

A man and his wife with five kids gave me a ride home, and on the way home one of the kids said to her parents, “We have never stayed at church this late before!” I suddenly realized that the whole church had done something for me that they had never done for anyone else, not even one of their own. I was very much impressed by this, but I was not at all impressed about Jesus.

Another Sunday night came (I had better things to do on Sunday morning than go to church) and there I was again. And then another Saturday night youth service, and there I was, but after the service the youth director/associate pastor named Ken, took me into the church and sat me down on the front pew and told me that he was going to read to me something from the Bible. Ken read a few verses from Romans, and I stopped him and told him that I had already read it (which was a lie), but he began reading again from Romans and made me a little angry.

Gary, a blond-haired boy and one of the four teenagers who had invited me to the youth service months before, walked past us, and I pointed to him and told Ken that Gary was one of the reasons why I was not a Christian, because Gary was a hypocrite. Ken replied, “You mean my boy?” and I answered, “No, Gary,” and pointed to him again. Ken told me that Gary was his boy. Both Ken and his wife had dark hair, and both of Gary’s brothers had blond hair like he did, and this all came as a very embarrassing surprise to me. To top it off, the senior pastor’s wife overheard my comments about Gary, and brought him over to me and told me to tell Gary what I said about him.

I was trapped by my own mouth, and I told Gary that I said that he was a hypocrite. Gary, just 14 years old, looked at me for a moment, and then began to speak. He told me that he was not a hypocrite, that he got to school every day an hour early so that he could witness to the others kids as they got off the buses. Gary went on to tell me that because he did that, he didn’t have even one single friend in school, but that he loved his schoolmates and wanted them to get saved. And then Gary invited me to go out with him some of the kids from the youth group to their Saturday night hamburger joint, Bob’s BigBoy.

I had thought that Gary was a hypocrite because he invited me to the youth service but from that point on had ignored me. And now that I told his father that he was a hypocrite, he was reaching out to be my friend. The three letter word sin had never been a part of my vocabulary because I didn’t believe there was such a thing, and especially not in my case, but there was Gary sitting at the table with me, and I knew that I was a sinner.

This guy sitting across the table from me, Jeanie’s boyfriend, started to witness to me and I became so angry that I picked up my full glass of ice water and through it into his face. That was the first time in my life that I had committed an act of violence—and I was absolutely shocked that I had done such thing—and in a crowded restaurant at that.

On my 25 birthday I struck up a conversation with a young man and learned that his name was Ricky, that he was a marine, and that he was a backslidden Baptist. We became friends and Ricky really wanted me to get saved—and he witnessed to me and witnessed to me—and one Saturday night he pressed me and pressed me to pray with him and ask Christ to be my Lord and my Savior. I didn’t want any part of it because I didn’t believe it, no, not really, but Ricky pressed me so hard that I told him that I would go to church the following night and answer the alter call.

Ricky wasn’t going to church anywhere, and I went to the Assembly of God that I had been going to for a few months now. When the pastor gave the alter call, I realized that I had made a terrible mistake—I had made a very foolish promise—but I had given my word and I crept toward the alter full of embarrassment for doing something so foolish.

The senior pastor’s wife came over to me and asked me if I wanted to accept Christ as my Lord and Savior, and I told her the promise that I had made to Ricky. I had less faith in Christ than Abraham had in light switches, but the pastor’s wife said a sinner’s prayer and asked me to repeat the words after her—and I did so—and the people in the church began to shout “Praise God! Thank you Jesus!” But I was just glad to get that over with.

But while I was praying I felt a tender hand on my shoulder, and when I finished praying I looked up and saw that it was Gary by my side. He told me that he had been praying for me ever since that first day that he had met me, and then he took off. He came back a few minutes later looking like he had been in a windstorm—his blond hair was all messed up and his shirttail was out—and he handed to me a King James Bible and explained that the door to the church office was locked and that he had to climb in through a window to get me the Bible so that I would not go home without one.

I didn’t drive, and the senior pastor drove me home, a very rare occurrence for him, and on the way he told me that he was very blessed by my accepting Christ. I told him that I was “going to try it for a few weeks,” and he dropped me off at my house.

For the next three weeks I continued going to church and the Christian coffee house, but my life had not changed at all, nor had I changed at all. One night at the Christian coffee house, a young man asked me if I was a Christian, and I told him that I was not. He took out of his pocket a Four Spiritual Laws tract and began to share it with me while I didn’t say a word; but all of a sudden he stopped and looked at me and said, “I don’t know why you lied to me about not being a Christian, but I can tell that you are.” I was caught off guard, and I told him about what had happen three weeks ago. Some one overheard, and shouted out, “Charlie Brown got saved!” I was absolutely shocked and more embarrassed than I thought possible, and I got up and got out of that place.

A few nights later I was walking down the main drag in downtown San Diego, Broadway, and as I stepped up onto the curb from 4th Avenue and began walking along Horton Plaza, I noticed a young sailor standing near the corner. I had seen him there before, and sensed that he was propositioning himself to other men, but that was very common on Horton Plaza so I hadn’t given any thought to it. But that night, something was very different—not about him—but about me! I wanted to just keep on walking, and even forced myself to do so for several steps, but I felt something inside of me forcing me to turn around. I tried to resist, but I couldn’t, and I walked right up to him and asked him if he was prostituting himself.

He told me that he was, and he began to cry, and then he took off like a rocket running down Broadway toward the bay. And there I went—running after him. He ran right through the red traffic lights dodging the cars, trucks, and buses; and I ran after him, right through the red traffic lights dodging the traffic. He finally took cover behind a large pillar on the front of a building, but I saw where he went, and I ran up behind him and felt my hand being lifted up onto his shoulder, and heard Bible verses coming out of my mouth as he leaned up against the pillar with his face in his hands crying.

After a few minutes, the young man turned around and told me that his name was Bob, that he was a Christian, that he was in the Navy, and that he was married and that his wife was expecting a baby, but that he was getting ready to go on a West Pacific cruise for several months and would be out to sea when the baby was born. He was extremely lonely, confused, and hurting inside—and he told me that he began to run because he was embarrassed, but that as he was running, he was hoping that I would care enough to pursue him and help him.

Up to that point in my life, servicemen had been little more than scum in my sight, but here I was holding in my arms a serviceman, and loving him more than life itself. And then I knew,

the hand of Jesus touched me,
And now I am no longer the same.

 

Dwayne,

Welcome to the Baptist Board!

Dwayne, I do not believe that you would have prayed asking for salvation if you did not believe in Jesus. And Dwayne, Jesus died in your place because you, like all of us, have sinned, and the wages of sin is death. Jesus paid the price for your sins. He already did that, we don’t have to ask him to save us; we just have to believe in him and trust in him to be our Lord and our Savior, and He even helps us to do that!

Having said that, I would like to share with you my testimony. It is a bit long, but I believe that it might encourage you.

One night when I was almost 25, four teenagers—a 14 year old boy named Gary, a 15 year old girl named Jeanie, and two others—invited me to come with them to a Christian youth service. I felt very badly for these kids, since they were Christians, and went I to the youth service with them believing that if I could help just one kid to escape the snares of Christianity it would be worth my time.

I had never been to a Christian youth service before, and boy was I surprised when I walked in the door! There were about 75 kids packed into the living room of an old house next door to the church—and they didn’t even have the courtesy to provide chairs—we all had to sit right on the floor. I found a spot along a wall where I could at least lean back and get some comfort, and I looked around the room. There was a fat lady about 40 years old sitting in the one chair in the room, and there was this guy about 37 standing up talking to some of the kids. I learned that his name was Ken and that he was in charge that night.

After a few minutes, Gary and Jeanie and some of the other teenagers got into a little group with some guitars and tambourines and began to sing a song that went something like this:

Shackled by a heavy burden,
'Neath a load of guilt and shame;
Then the hand of Jesus touched me,
And now I am no longer the same.

Refrain

He touched me! He touched me! And O, the joy that floods my soul. Something happened, and now I know; He touched me and made me whole!

Since I met this blessed Savior;
Since He cleansed and made me whole,
I will never cease to praise Him
I'll shout it while eternity rolls.

Refrain


It was a cute song, but I certainly wasn’t underneath a load of guilt and shame because I was not guilty of anything, and I had nothing to be ashamed about.

They sang some more cute songs, and since I loved kids, I enjoyed their performance—but then they quit singing and began giving their testimonies—and that was a bit much—especially when they cried half way through them. They testified how sin had wrecked their lives and Jesus had saved them and put their lives back together—and I could tell that they were so brainwashed that they really believed the stories they were telling. As it turned out, I didn’t get a chance to say anything, and my being there was a waste, except that the refreshments were good and I enjoyed being in the company of the kids.

I started going to a Christian coffee house several night a week where during the Bible studies I could occasionally express my ideas. I was very embarrassed to be in such a place, however, and when they asked me my name, I told them it was none of their business—and they named me Charlie Brown.

I continued going to the Christian youth services at the Assembly of God church and began to get acquainted with the kids there. This one 17 year old girl, Laurie, was really nice, but I could tell that she was damaged goods. We got to talking one night and she told me that sometimes she can’t come to church because her parents punished her by forbidding her to go to church. I stood out like a freak, but the kids were really nice to me, except that I found out that they were praying that I would get saved.

This went on for a few months—the kids were really nice to me, but some of the adults were beginning to show definite signs of hostility—and then it happened. On a Sunday night I found myself being physically escorted out the door.

However, the associate pastor, who was also the leader of the youth group, came to my rescue and brought me back inside and told the others to pray for me. Before I knew it, the whole church was praying for me, and they continued to pray for me until a few minutes after midnight. Then the associate pastor asked me if I would like to accept Christ as my savior. I had enjoyed all of the attention, and listening to their prayers was a lot of fun, but as for getting saved—nuts to that idea. Jesus was no more real to me that the Easter Bunny or Santa Clause.

A man and his wife with five kids gave me a ride home, and on the way home one of the kids said to her parents, “We have never stayed at church this late before!” I suddenly realized that the whole church had done something for me that they had never done for anyone else, not even one of their own. I was very much impressed by this, but I was not at all impressed about Jesus.

Another Sunday night came (I had better things to do on Sunday morning than go to church) and there I was again. And then another Saturday night youth service, and there I was, but after the service the youth director/associate pastor named Ken, took me into the church and sat me down on the front pew and told me that he was going to read to me something from the Bible. Ken read a few verses from Romans, and I stopped him and told him that I had already read it (which was a lie), but he began reading again from Romans and made me a little angry.

Gary, a blond-haired boy and one of the four teenagers who had invited me to the youth service months before, walked past us, and I pointed to him and told Ken that Gary was one of the reasons why I was not a Christian, because Gary was a hypocrite. Ken replied, “You mean my boy?” and I answered, “No, Gary,” and pointed to him again. Ken told me that Gary was his boy. Both Ken and his wife had dark hair, and both of Gary’s brothers had blond hair like he did, and this all came as a very embarrassing surprise to me. To top it off, the senior pastor’s wife overheard my comments about Gary, and brought him over to me and told me to tell Gary what I said about him.

I was trapped by my own mouth, and I told Gary that I said that he was a hypocrite. Gary, just 14 years old, looked at me for a moment, and then began to speak. He told me that he was not a hypocrite, that he got to school every day an hour early so that he could witness to the others kids as they got off the buses. Gary went on to tell me that because he did that, he didn’t have even one single friend in school, but that he loved his schoolmates and wanted them to get saved. And then Gary invited me to go out with him some of the kids from the youth group to their Saturday night hamburger joint, Bob’s BigBoy.

I had thought that Gary was a hypocrite because he invited me to the youth service but from that point on had ignored me. And now that I told his father that he was a hypocrite, he was reaching out to be my friend. The three letter word sin had never been a part of my vocabulary because I didn’t believe there was such a thing, and especially not in my case, but there was Gary sitting at the table with me, and I knew that I was a sinner.

This guy sitting across the table from me, Jeanie’s boyfriend, started to witness to me and I became so angry that I picked up my full glass of ice water and through it into his face. That was the first time in my life that I had committed an act of violence—and I was absolutely shocked that I had done such thing—and in a crowded restaurant at that.

On my 25 birthday I struck up a conversation with a young man and learned that his name was Ricky, that he was a marine, and that he was a backslidden Baptist. We became friends and Ricky really wanted me to get saved—and he witnessed to me and witnessed to me—and one Saturday night he pressed me and pressed me to pray with him and ask Christ to be my Lord and my Savior. I didn’t want any part of it because I didn’t believe it, no, not really, but Ricky pressed me so hard that I told him that I would go to church the following night and answer the alter call.

Ricky wasn’t going to church anywhere, and I went to the Assembly of God that I had been going to for a few months now. When the pastor gave the alter call, I realized that I had made a terrible mistake—I had made a very foolish promise—but I had given my word and I crept toward the alter full of embarrassment for doing something so foolish.

The senior pastor’s wife came over to me and asked me if I wanted to accept Christ as my Lord and Savior, and I told her the promise that I had made to Ricky. I had less faith in Christ than Abraham had in light switches, but the pastor’s wife said a sinner’s prayer and asked me to repeat the words after her—and I did so—and the people in the church began to shout “Praise God! Thank you Jesus!” But I was just glad to get that over with.

But while I was praying I felt a tender hand on my shoulder, and when I finished praying I looked up and saw that it was Gary by my side. He told me that he had been praying for me ever since that first day that he had met me, and then he took off. He came back a few minutes later looking like he had been in a windstorm—his blond hair was all messed up and his shirttail was out—and he handed to me a King James Bible and explained that the door to the church office was locked and that he had to climb in through a window to get me the Bible so that I would not go home without one.

I didn’t drive, and the senior pastor drove me home, a very rare occurrence for him, and on the way he told me that he was very blessed by my accepting Christ. I told him that I was “going to try it for a few weeks,” and he dropped me off at my house.

For the next three weeks I continued going to church and the Christian coffee house, but my life had not changed at all, nor had I changed at all. One night at the Christian coffee house, a young man asked me if I was a Christian, and I told him that I was not. He took out of his pocket a Four Spiritual Laws tract and began to share it with me while I didn’t say a word; but all of a sudden he stopped and looked at me and said, “I don’t know why you lied to me about not being a Christian, but I can tell that you are.” I was caught off guard, and I told him about what had happen three weeks ago. Some one overheard, and shouted out, “Charlie Brown got saved!” I was absolutely shocked and more embarrassed than I thought possible, and I got up and got out of that place.

A few nights later I was walking down the main drag in downtown San Diego, Broadway, and as I stepped up onto the curb from 4th Avenue and began walking along Horton Plaza, I noticed a young sailor standing near the corner. I had seen him there before, and sensed that he was propositioning himself to other men, but that was very common on Horton Plaza so I hadn’t given any thought to it. But that night, something was very different—not about him—but about me! I wanted to just keep on walking, and even forced myself to do so for several steps, but I felt something inside of me forcing me to turn around. I tried to resist, but I couldn’t, and I walked right up to him and asked him if he was prostituting himself.

He told me that he was, and he began to cry, and then he took off like a rocket running down Broadway toward the bay. And there I went—running after him. He ran right through the red traffic lights dodging the cars, trucks, and buses; and I ran after him, right through the red traffic lights dodging the traffic. He finally took cover behind a large pillar on the front of a building, but I saw where he went, and I ran up behind him and felt my hand being lifted up onto his shoulder, and heard Bible verses coming out of my mouth as he leaned up against the pillar with his face in his hands crying.

After a few minutes, the young man turned around and told me that his name was Bob, that he was a Christian, that he was in the Navy, and that he was married and that his wife was expecting a baby, but that he was getting ready to go on a West Pacific cruise for several months and would be out to sea when the baby was born. He was extremely lonely, confused, and hurting inside—and he told me that he began to run because he was embarrassed, but that as he was running, he was hoping that I would care enough to pursue him and help him.

Up to that point in my life, servicemen had been little more than scum in my sight, but here I was holding in my arms a serviceman, and loving him more than life itself. And then I knew,

the hand of Jesus touched me,
And now I am no longer the same.



[ October 16, 2004, 03:29 AM: Message edited by: Craigbythesea ]

 

Moderators,

I accidentally double posted. Please delete the first of these two very similar posts that contain my testimony. And please delete this note to you also. Thank you!

 

Craig, I enjoyed reading your testimony. You earlier said the following:

Craig, I strongly disagree with you. The Bible teaches that God is omniscient (all knowing). Our most recent confession of faith, the 2000 Baptist Faith and Message, expresses it as follows:

God’s omniscience is clear from Scripture:

God’s “understanding is infinite.” (Psalm 147:5)
God “knows all things.” (1 John 3:20)
God is “perfect in knowledge.” (Job 37:16)
God knew everything I would do before I was born: “Thine eyes have seen my unformed substance; and in Thy book they were all written, the days that were ordained for me, when as yet there was not one of them.” (Psalm 139:16)

There is a group of people who believe in what is called “open theism,” and they are led by Clark Pinnock and John Sanders. They believe that God does not know everything about our future decisions. Open theism has been condemned by the Evangelical Theological Society’s executive committee, which unanimously voted approval of the following statement on November 14, 2000:

I think it is clear that open theism is out of bounds for evangelical Christians. God is omniscient. He not only knows what people will certainly do under actual circumstances, He also knows what people would certainly do under imagined circumstances. This is known as counterfactual knowledge. An example in the Bible of this counterfactual knowledge where God knew with certainty both the actual future and the imagined future is 1 Samuel 23:9-13:

(NASV)

God already knew the actual future; He knew that David and his men would leave Keilah before Saul could come there. God, however, also knew with certainty what the specific events in an imagined future would be if some events in the actual future were changed. David asked God what would happen if he stayed in Keilah (not an actual event). God told David what would happen if an actual event (leaving Keilah) were somehow changed. He said that the people of Keilah would surrender David to Saul. Of course, that surrender of David did not actually happen, but God knew with certainty it would happen if David stayed in Keilah. David had a choice to make, and God already knew what his choice would be. Thus, his choice did not interfere with God’s sovereignty.

Other examples of God’s counterfactual knowledge are found in 2 Kings 13:19, Jeremiah 23:22, 1 Corinthians 2:8, Jeremiah 38:17-20, and Acts 27:22-31.

Craig, I would still like for you to give me an example of a Christian group or a denomination that believes in your view of "once saved, later permanently lost."

 

Dwayne, thanks for your very sincere comments. It is important for you to have assurance of your salvation. The following passage of Scripture is relevant:

“These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life.” (1 John 5:13)

This verse says that you can know for sure that you have eternal life. You know you have eternal life if you “believe in the name of the Son of God.” We must carefully look at what this phrase means. Obviously, the Son of God is Jesus. What does it mean to “believe in the name”? The Greek scholar, A.T. Robertson, commented on this phrase:

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/RobertsonsWordPictures/rwp.cgi?book=1jo&chapter=5&verse=13

Robertson mentioned 1 John 3:23: “And this is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.” Notice again the phrase “believe in the name.” Danny Akin, president of Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary, commented on 1 John 3:23:

(Akin, “1, 2, 3 John,” The New American Commentary, vol. 38, 2001, page 167)

Dwayne, there are two types of belief described in the Bible. James 2:19 states:

“You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.”

The demons have intellectual belief, but they are not saved. The demons never committed themselves to Jesus’ Lordship. They never were willing to surrender their lives to Him in repentance and faith. Satan also has intellectual belief, but Satan is certainly not a Christian. Satan knows that every word of the Bible is true. Intellectual assent is not enough to save a person. Our most recent Southern Baptist confession of faith, the 2000 Baptist Faith and Message says:

I hope this is helpful to you.