Lordship Salvation

Dwayne · Oct 16, 2004

Craig, Thanks for sharing your testimony. I don't understand what you mean by we don't have to ask Him to save us.

DeafPosttrib · Oct 16, 2004

Dwayne,

No, no. Craig does not saying that. Of course, Jesus Christ is our Saviour. He came to earth to saved us from all sins and hell. We do not desrve trying to enter into heaven by ourselves through our own self-righteous and good works. Christ forgived us our sins through his blood. Without his blood, there is no forgiven. Thank God, for Jesus Christ died on the cross four our sins, also, He already overcome death, He victory over it for us.

Christ washed all our sins away all of our past sins. But, Christ commanded us to confess our future sins to him faithfully - 1 John 1:9. Or, if we don't, then Christ would not forgive our sins. If we remain with sins without confess, Christ would remain not forgive us all the way till our death, then will remain lost without repentance go to everlasting life. It according to Matt. 19:34-35.

Yes, everyone need Savior to save them from everlasting fire and their sins. They have power to enter into heaven without have Jesus Christ. They need to ask Jesus to saved them from sins and hell. Christ is glad ready to listen any person's prayer ask for forgive of sins. If, a person don't ask Christ for forgive sins, then Christ wouldn't forgive person's sin, unless a person have to ask Christ first.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

koreahog2005 · Oct 16, 2004

Southern Baptists believe that a Christian cannot lose his salvation. Our most recent confession of faith states:

All true believers endure to the end. Those whom God has accepted in Christ, and sanctified by His Spirit, will never fall away from the state of grace, but shall persevere to the end. Believers may fall into sin through neglect and temptation, whereby they grieve the Spirit, impair their graces and comforts, and bring reproach on the cause of Christ and temporal judgments on themselves; yet they shall be kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation.
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The Bible says that all elect people receive eternal life, and they cannot be taken from God:

“All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.” (John 6:37-39)

“But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.” (John 10:26-29)

Only God’s sheep (the elect) will have true faith in Jesus. God chose the elect “before the foundation of the world” and predestined them “to adoption as sons” (Ephesians 1:4-5). God has always known that those “whom He predestined” would also be called, justified, and glorified (Romans 8:30). Thus, the elect will inevitably go to heaven (be glorified) when they physically die. They will receive resurrection bodies and live in a glorious place (glorification). An elect person will never become a non-elect person, and a non-elect person will never become an elect person.

The Bible says that Christians have received the Holy Spirit as a seal and as a pledge:

In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory. (Ephesians 1:13-14)

Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge. (2 Corinthians 1:21-22)

And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. (Ephesians 4:30)

The seal refers to a mark of approval. God the Father set His seal on God the Son (John 6:27). The Holy Spirit indwells the human spirits of Christians as a pledge of eternal life. In this context, the pledge is a spiritual down payment or earnest money, a guarantee that the Christian will go to heaven. His inheritance is imperishable and is reserved in heaven for him (1 Peter 1:4).

During the regeneration event a person becomes a new creature: “Therefore if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come” (2 Corinthians 5:17). He is a new creature because he has been indwelled by the Holy Spirit. A Christian may backslide, but he will never fully return to the old things. The Christian is truly an everlasting creation of God.

Christians can know for certain that they have been adopted by God and have eternal life:

The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God. (Romans 8:16)

And the witness is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life. (1 John 5:11-13)

Christians do not receive eternal life when they physically die; they receive it at the regeneration event. John 3:36 says, “He who believes in the Son has eternal life.” Eternal life is life that cannot be lost. Thus, those who have eternal life cannot lose their salvation.

The Bible says that nothing can separate Christians from God’s love:

For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 8:38-39)

If Christians can never be separated from God’s love, then we must acknowledge the impossibility of their being burned in the lake of fire for an eternity: “And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire” (Revelation 20:15). Thus, Christians have eternal security. They are indeed everlasting, new creations.

Craigbythesea · Oct 17, 2004

Craig, I would still like for you to give me an example of a Christian group or a denomination that believes in your view of "once saved, later permanently lost."
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As I have already written, whether or not those who have fallen from grace can or can not be subsequently renewed has been the subject of debate going all the way back at least to Tertullian. The Orthodox Churches have believed since the fourth century that renewal is impossible because that would, in their view, require a second baptism which they view as being contrary to Scripture. Many Lutherans and Methodists would argue likewise, but other Lutherans and Methodists would disagree. Denominations that have a less sacramental view of water baptism view the question of renewal subsequent to falling from grace very differently, and these denominations, with the possible exception of some very small denominations whose position on the subject I am not familiar with, do not have an official interpretation. Many individuals in these denominations, and even many Lutherans and Methodists, believe that the falling away in Heb. 6 for which renewal is impossible is the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Except for in the Orthodox Churches, there is no consensus of opinion on the renew question.

There are two very important things to take notice of here:

1. There are very many warning in the New Testament of the severe dangers involved in apostasy.

2. If one believes that he or she has blasphemed the Holy Spirit or fallen from grace for some other reason, there is no consensus of opinion that all hope of renewal is lost. If one believes in the gospel, and has a desire to be saved, that person is, in my view, in the state of grace, and that one should not weep from sorrow but weep from joy that for them, at least, it is not too late. Place you faith in Christ as best as you know how and submit to Him as your Lord and your God as best as you can, all the time trusting Him as best as you can to help you in ANY area in which you may come up short. Jesus is more than able and more than willing to save and keep even you.

Craigbythesea · Oct 17, 2004

Originally posted by Dwayne:
Craig, Thanks for sharing your testimony. I don't understand what you mean by we don't have to ask Him to save us.
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Dwayne,

The Bible does not say that we have to ask Jesus to save us. The Bible says that we need to believe in Jesus. I asked him to save me because I told my friend that I would, and Jesus answered even a flimsy prayer like that. Most certainly he has answered your prayers for him to say you. All you need to do now is believe in Him as best as you can and put your faith into action by doing the things that you know you need to do:

• Pray every day, thanking God for saving you and blessing you, and praying for God to meet the needs of the people whom the Holy Spirit puts upon your heart to pray for. Lastly, pray for any needs that you have in your own life.

• Take some time out every day just to praise God for who He is and for anything else you want to praise Him for. And do this whether you feel like it or not. Simply doing it will help you to feel like it.

• Take some time out of every day to read your Bible. And as you read it, pray that God will teach you His truths and protect you from all error.

• Share Christ with other. Several times in my life I found myself facing the impossible, and at times I have almost been swallowed up in despair, but even in times such as these the Holy Spirit called upon me to minister the Gospel to others—and Dwayne, the joy that comes from obeying God and sharing your faith in times of severe trial is the unspeakable joy that we read of in the Bible.

Jesus paid the price for you sins and He is saying to you, “Dwayne, believe in Me, trust Me.”

Jesus loves you, Dwayne!

koreahog2005 · Oct 17, 2004

Craig, it appears from the documentary evidence below that Greek Orthodox theologians believe a person who has lost his salvation can always be restored. The Methodist and Lutheran documents I found don't provide a really clear picture. With the last Lutheran quote, however, it looks like you were correct about them. Wesley believed that the unpardonable sin was saying that Jesus’ power came from Satan. He did not seem to equate that with deliberate apostasy. I don’t know if he thought that a person who had lost their salvation could ever commit that sin. (The first quote from Wesley may indicate that he did think that way, but it is not perfectly clear in its wording.) He may have thought that it was a sin that could only be committed by a person who had never been a Christian.

1. Greek Orthodox

Repentance is the exercise of the free will of man, without which there is no salvation. Repentance is not merely penance and regret for bad actions. Repentance is, rather, the human reaction to the appeal of Jesus Christ, and its result is joy over a new birth. It is a unique transformation from a vague belief to a firm faith in the true God and His Kingdom. By such a repentance the adherent attains a communion with God on earth which is destined to endure forever.
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http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article7076.asp

Repentance is indeed an act of reconciliation, of reintegration into the Body of Christ, which has been torn asunder by sin. For "if one member suffers, all suffer together" (1 Corinthians 12.26). "Therefore, confess your sins to one another ... that you may be healed" (James 5.16). The whole Church expresses a search for repentance in the repeated words of the Psalmist, commonly known as the "miserere" (Psalms 50). It is through the faith of the community that the individual is readmitted and forgiven. "When Jesus saw their faith he said, 'man, your sins are forgiven' " (Luke 5.20; cf. Matthew 9.2 and Mark 2.5).
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http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article8493.asp

From the Orthodox Creed:

Confession is one of the most significant means of repenting, and receiving assurance that even our worst sins are truly forgiven. It is also one of our most powerful aids to forsaking and overcoming those sins.
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http://www.bible.ca/cr-Orthodox.htm#creed

From the Orthodox Catechism:

Q. What conditions cause a member to be cut off from the Church Militant, and what is he called then?
A. 1. When a member falls into apostasy or leaves the Christian religion, then he is called an apostate.
2. When a member falls into heresy, i.e. adds human Dogmas to the Divine Dogmas or takes away from them or perverts those which Christ gave to us for our salvation; then he is called a heretic or cacodox.
3. When a member falls into schism, namely, does not acknowledge the canonical Ecclesiastical Authorities, or in any way strikes at their administration; then he is called schismatic or anticanonical.
4. When a member falls into excommunication, namely, commits a mortal sin and stubbornly clings to it, causing great scandal; then he is excommunicated by the Ecclesiastical Authority and is called an excommunicate.

Q. How are the apostate, the heretic, and the schismatic received into the Church?
A. The apostate and the heretic are anointed with Holy Chrism and the schismatic signs a written confession.

Q. What is the Sacrament of Penance and what else is it called?
A. The Sacrament of Penance is a holy ceremony in which the sinner, repenting, confesses his sins to Christ before the Confessor, is forgiven, and reconciled with God again; it is also called the Sacrament of Confession.

Q. Through whom are sins forgiven? Has he the power to forgive sins? And by whom is he thus empowered?
A. Sins are forgiven through the Confessor who has this power from our Lord Jesus Christ, because our Lord gave it to His Apostles in the words:
"Receive ye the Holy Ghost; whosesoever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them and whosesoever sins ye retain, they are retained."...(Gospel of Saint John, Chapter 20, Verses 22-23), and they in turn gave it to their successors, and these to the Clergymen who were under them.

Q. By whom and when was this Sacrament instituted, and is it necessary for our salvation?
A. By our Lord, after His resurrection. It is necessary for our salvation because every man, after Baptism, falls into sin which stains the soul and is a transgression of the law of God. If therefore, this sin is not forgiven, the sinner cannot draw near to the Holy God; and is moreover, subject to punishment.
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http://www.bible.ca/cr-Orthodox.htm#catechism

2. Lutherans

From the Smalcald Articles by Martin Luther (1537), Article IX: Excommunication:

But the lesser, that is, the true Christian excommunication, consists in this, that manifest and obstinate sinners are not admitted to the Sacrament and other communion of the Church until they amend their lives and avoid sin.
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http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/concord/web/smc-03i.html

From the Augsburg Confession, Article XII, “Of Repentance” (1530):

Of Repentance they teach that for those who have fallen after Baptism there is remission of sins whenever they are converted and that the Church ought to impart absolution to those thus returning to repentance. Now, repentance consists properly of these two parts: One is contrition, that is, terrors smiting the conscience through the knowledge of sin; the other is faith, which is born of the Gospel, or of absolution, and believes that for Christ's sake, sins are forgiven, comforts the conscience, and delivers it from terrors. Then good works are bound to follow, which are the fruits of repentance.

They condemn the Anabaptists, who deny that those once justified can lose the Holy Ghost. Also those who contend that some may attain to such perfection in this life that they cannot sin.

The Novatians also are condemned, who would not absolve such as had fallen after Baptism, though they returned to repentance.

They also are rejected who do not teach that remission of sins comes through faith but command us to merit grace through satisfactions of our own.
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http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/concord/web/augs-012.html

From The Concordia Lutheran, May/June 1994:

By definition, the Sin against the Holy Ghost is a conscious, malicious, and unrelenting opposition to the work of the Holy Spirit of God, including bold and openly hostile blasphemy against God's saving truth, on the part of a person who himself was once converted, was personally convinced of the truth, or who at least experienced the influence of the Holy Ghost in his heart. This definition, a composite of those offered over the years by sound Lutheran theologians, has been derived from what the various passages have to say which treat of this grievous sin.
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http://www.concordialutheranconf.com/clc/cl_articles/CLO_articleDTM_may1994.cfm

3. Methodists

From The Methodist Articles of Religion by Wesley (1784), Article XII:

Not every sin willingly committed after justification is the sin against the Holy Ghost, and unpardonable. Wherefore, the grant of repentance is not to be denied to such as fall into sin after justification. After we have received the Holy Ghost, we may depart from grace given, and fall into sin, and, by the grace of God, rise again and amend our lives. And therefore they are to be condemned who say they can no more sin as long as they live here; or deny the place of forgiveness to such as truly repent.
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http://www.godonthe.net/cme/methdist/articles.htm

From Wesley’s sermon number 86, “A Call to Backsliders” (1872):

How is it possible that any one who reads his Bible, can one hour remain in doubt concerning it, when our Lord himself, in the very passage cited above, has so clearly told us what that blasphemy is? "He that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness: Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit." (Mark 3:29-30) This then, and this alone, (if we allow our Lord to understand his own meaning) is the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost: The saying, He had an unclean spirit; the affirming that Christ wrought his miracles by the power of an evil spirit; or, more particularly, that "he cast out devils by Beelzebub, the prince of the devils." Now, have you been guilty of this? have you affirmed, that he cast out devils by the prince of devils? No more than you have cut your neighbour's throat, and set his house on fire.
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http://gbgm-umc.org/umhistory/wesley/sermons/serm-086.stm

From Wesley's Explanatory Notes, entry for Matthew 12:31:

The blasphemy against the Spirit - How much stir has been made about this? How many sermons, yea, volumes, have been written concerning it? And yet there is nothing plainer in all the Bible. It is neither more nor less than the ascribing those miracles to the power of the devil, which Christ wrought by the power of the Holy Ghost. 3:28; Luke 12:10.
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http://bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/WesleysExplanatoryNotes/wes.cgi?book=mt&chapter=12#Mt12_31

From Wesley's Explanatory Notes, entry for Luke 12:10:

And whosoever - As if he had said, Yet the denying me in some degree, may, upon true repentance, be forgiven; but if it rise so high as that of the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, it shall never be forgiven, neither is there place for repentance. Matthew 12:31; Mr 3:28.
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http://bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/WesleysExplanatoryNotes/wes.cgi?book=lu&chapter=12#Lu12_10

[ October 17, 2004, 11:06 AM: Message edited by: koreahog2005 ]

koreahog2005 · Oct 17, 2004

Craig, I just found a couple of other quotes that indicate you were probably correct about the Greek Orthodox Church:

The mysteries of initiation introduce us to the life-long process of grasping accepting and choosing to follow the values of the Christian life. Christians, born anew in Baptism, are expected to govern their lives by the power of God. They are to undertake the noblest deeds and "holding fast to both faith and virtue. . .formed by both into the blessed likeness of Christ" (St. Nicholas Cabasilas). The Church, however, has never considered Baptism to be an automatic guarantor of continuous salvation. It is only the beginning of the life in Christ. Its full effects are derived when the baptized are disposed to persevere and preserve the treasure to the end. The process of healing and restoring our damaged, wounded and fallen nature is on-going.

God is recognized to be continuously loving, merciful and long-suffering towards his creation. He accepts all repentant sinners tenderly and rejoices greatly in their conversion. There are no limits set to the exercise of his loving-kindness and forgiveness. All sins are forgivable, save one: blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Here we are confronted not with the powerlessness of God, but with an unrepentant and callous heart.
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http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article7106.asp

The blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is a mortal and unforgivable sin, because it presumes that God's saving action in this particular case is impossible. (cf. Matt. 12: 31).
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http://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/articles/misc/litsas_dictionary_orthodox_terminology.htm

Craigbythesea · Oct 18, 2004

The Lutheran scholar R.C.H. Lenski wrote on Heb. 6:6:

Another kai is added and another aorist participle, and these complete the description of these Christians. We again have just one word as we had in the first participle used in v. 4. "And fell away," just this final fact. There is no need to say more, this one word tells the whole story. It is tragic to the highest degree. The following words describe how tragic it is. This is not a falling into some sin or error which is dangerous but not deadly; no denial like that of Peter in a panic of fear, like that of weak Christians who in order to save their lives were frightened by persecutions into sacrificing to pagan gods or to the emperor as a divine being. The church was inclined to consider the latter as being beyond hope, which was a mistake in many cases.

“And fell away" (literally "to the side," para) means to fall away utterly. They fell to such an extent that "it is impossible again to renew them unto repentance” i. e., again to produce repentance (see the word in v. 1) in their heart and so to change their state into one that is again kainos or "new" as they had once been made new. The subject of the infinitive is unexpressed; it need not be expressed, for no one, neither God himself, the Holy Spirit, nor his Word and the ministers of that Word are able to produce a renewal of the repentance that is gone.

It is the state into which they have fallen which makes renewal to repentance impossible. Two present durative participles describe this state, and we regard them as causal: "since they are recrucifying for themselves the Son of God and exposing him to public ignominy." As the tenses show, there is no cessation in this double act. The enormity of these acts is expressed by making "the Son of God" the object of them. They are repeating the awful act of the Jewish Sanhedrin, who crucified Jesus because he said he was the Son of God (Matt. 26:63-66). They are doing this "for themselves." They are not again actually nailing him to the cross as one who was accursed of God (Gal. 3:13), for he is now beyond human reach, in glory, but as far as his relation to them and theirs to him is concerned.

The second participle goes still farther, "exposing him to public ignominy" as the Sanhedrists did in Matt. 26:67, 68 when they spit in Jesus' face, knocked him about, and mocked him; when they brought him to the cross to hang there in public ignominy, and added to this outrage by their hideous mockery. Matt 27:38-43. Those who fell from the Son of God openly denounce and revile him before the world, and, having once embraced him, they not only know how to do this most effectively like a friend turned traitor who viciously uses all that his former intimacy provides him, but do it so that men shall see what they as one-time converts of Jesus have now as disillusioned converts come to think of him. Outsiders may vilify the Son of God; they have never been personally in touch with him. What does that amount to? It is a different matter when his own converts eventually expose him to public shame. The word blasphemy is not used here as it is in the passages in the Gospels that speak about the sin against the Holy Ghost; but "exposing to public ignominy" is a full equivalent.
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R. C. H. Lenski. The Interpretation of the Epistle to the Hebrews and the Epistle of James. Augsburg Publishing House, 1966. pp. 185-187.

koreahog2005 · Oct 18, 2004

Craig, thanks for the Lenski quote. I don't have access to his commentary on Hebrews. I heard he talked about hapax applying to all the participles, not just "enlightened" in 6:4. Can you give me that quote?

Craigbythesea · Oct 19, 2004

Originally posted by koreahog2005:
Craig, thanks for the Lenski quote. I don't have access to his commentary on Hebrews. I heard he talked about hapax applying to all the participles, not just "enlightened" in 6:4. Can you give me that quote?
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Here is the quote:

“We confess that we are unable to see why "once" should not be construed with all the participles save the last, "fell away," which naturally needs no modifying adverb. To say that only the enlightenment is momentary while the other three are durative experiences is to have a wrong conception of the enlightenment.” (p. 182)

Craigbythesea · Oct 19, 2004

You may also be interested in Lenski’s translation of Heb. 6:4-6:

For those who were once enlightened and tasted the heavenly gift and became partakers of the Holy Spirit and tasted God's excellent utterance and (his) powers of the eon about to come and fell away, it is impossible again to renew them unto repentance since they are recrucifying the Son of God and exposing him to public ignominy.

koreahog2005 · Oct 19, 2004

Thanks, Craig. That's very helpful.

Craigbythesea · Oct 19, 2004

You are most welcome!

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