Featured Lordship Salvation

I don't think the second stupidest man on the planet thinks that that is how lorshippers believe.

 

That's true and if Jesus is not your Lord then you are not saved. (Romans 10:9). However, one does not have to be obedient in order to be saved, obedience comes from a heart where Jesus is Lord, not the other way around. So, you don't have to have any amount of obedience in order to be saved.

 

Repentance

Romans 10:9

2 Corinthians 3:18 - evidence that we have a new nature

Yes, those that God saves, he keeps

Again, no one teaches that good works comes before salvation.

 

Growth. As I said before, you don't have to have any obedience in order to be saved. After you are saved, there isn't any amount of anything you can do to keep it. God promised to keep you. How much do you have to have in order to prove? Growth. It's not an amount. 2 Corinthians 3:18 God is transforming us. We don't all grow at the same rate, but we grow.

 

None of this makes sense if Calvinism is true. If Calvinism is true, the unregenerate man cannot be obedient, so it doesn't make much sense for guys like John Piper to preach to folks that if they are not being obedient to God then that is pretty good evidence they are not regenerate. Suppose that is true, what could they do about it? NOTHING. If Calvinism is true, these unregenerate persons are unable to even desire to be obedient, even if they hear preaching on it. So it is a waste of time to preach obedience to unregenerate men in Calvinism.

And if they are regenerate, then their obedience is meaningless, they are saved no matter what. So again, it is an unnecessary waste of time to preach obedience to a regenerate person in Calvinism, they cannot be lost.

So, for a Calvinist preacher to preach on obedience like Piper and MacArthur do is nonsensical and not needed.

 

But that is not how Lordship Salvation preachers preach. They preach that if you are not obedient, then you are probably not saved.

OK, let's say that is perfectly accurate, they are not saved. What are they going to do about it? NOTHING. In Calvinism all men are completely helpless. If God regenerates them that is fantastic, but if he chooses to pass them by no amount of preaching will change that.

I've heard quite a few Lordship Salvation preachers, and they do not preach growth, they preach that if you are not obedient, you are probably LOST.

 

You need to stop acting like you know anything about LS or those who preach it.

 

You misquoted the part about repentance. You left out "in the heart" changing it from a description of repentance into works. And you misrepresented it as the article shows your 2,3, and 4th point flow from salvation, whereas you insinuated that LS teaches those are the basis of salvation.

I have said no such thing. I firmly believe in salvation totally apart from works. Please stop lying and misrepresenting me. Deal honestly with the issue. We can disagree without lying about each other I hope.

Eh. Good enough. Though I worry that you first say no repentance is not needed, but then end up basically affirming yes it is.

Are the two, justification and sanctification, not related? Doesn't justification always lead to sanctification? The only red-herring here is your question/statement, bolded above, as you know that is not what LS teaches.

and actually yes salvation, the full scope of it not simply justification, is a process. According to scripture I am saved, I am being saved, and I will be saved. But that's another topic...

I am responding to your post. You listed those 4 points saying that they teach works salvation, thereby implying that you disagree with them. If you disagree "that progressive sanctification and perseverance must follow" (your own statement #3) salvation, then my question is perfectly reasonable. Now you are back tracking. So which is, does sanctification necessarily follow justification or not? Can a person claim Christ all their life then repudiate the gospel and be saved?

Have you ever read any Calvinist explaining what perseverance of the saints means? Saying that the elect will persevere is simply saying that none will fall away. None will leave the faith, they will continue in faith until death. It has nothing at all to do with doing works in order to maintain your salvation.

No it doesn't. You misunderstand.

 

You aren't actually interested in real discussion. That's clear. I'm done trying to discuss something this serious with the irrational.

 

Bingo:thumbsup::thumbsup::laugh::thumbsup:

 

RLBosley

Yes...good catch...part of his M.O.

yes....this should not happen at all.


Eh. Good enough. Though I worry that you first say no repentance is not needed, but then end up basically affirming yes it is.



Are the two, justification and sanctification, not related? Doesn't justification always lead to sanctification?

.
yes...:laugh:


[
and actually yes salvation, the full scope of it not simply justification, is a process. According to scripture I am saved, I am being saved, and I will be saved. But that's another topic...

that would be helpful

 

And I could say the same to you. Who are you? What makes you such an authority on Lordship Salvation?

Explain Lordship Salvation so that everyone can plainly understand it if you are such the expert. How obedient do you have to be to be saved? Or how disobedient do you have to be to prove you are lost?

 

Winman

He is onto you TK...everyone is...he just cannot take your agenda...from thread to thread, day after day....all see it now:thumbsup:

 

Salvation is a gift, all you have to do is receive it. You don't have to work for it, you don't have to promise to be obedient to receive it. That would not be a gift.

Salvation is not a bargain or deal you make with God, I will obey you if you save me. That would not be a gift, that would be earning your salvation through obedience.

 

Another one of your brilliant arguments. :laugh:

 

All true. Also irrelevant.

 

It's completely relevant, you don't have to promise to be good to receive a gift.

You are saved the MOMENT you receive and believe on Jesus, you have passed from death to life, you don't have to obey to be saved SOMEDAY.

Jhn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

 

None of this is relevant. LS does not deny any of this. Winman, I know you don't believe me, but you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what Lordship Salvation teaches. This is glaringly obvious since you seem to think that what you've said here is contradictory to the LS position. Humble yourself, and seek to learn what is actually being taught. You said yourself that Piper's sermon had some good points. It was LS through and through.

 

Well it is a theological position I hold too.

The fact that you even ask this means you either do not understand it or you are just trying too misrepresent it. Such a question should never be asked in trying to explain it. It is irrelevant.

 

Now that clears up everything