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Featured Lordship Salvation

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Rolfe, Jun 20, 2014.

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  1. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Man is not totally passive. That would lead to a teaching of universalism.
    A much better definition of regeneration is given by Ryrie:
     
  2. jbh28

    jbh28 Active Member

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    again, false. You don't obey to get saved. LS teaches repentance and because we have repented we will obey. EDIT: do you have any context on the JM quote? I'm curious on his quote. EDIT 2: The quote was updated

    Don’t believe anyone who says it’s easy to become a Christian. Salvation for sinners cost God His own Son; it cost God’s Son His life, and it’ll cost you the same thing. Salvation isn’t gained by reciting mere words. Saving faith transforms the heart, and that in turn transforms behavior. Faith’s fruit is seen in actions, not intentions. There’s no room for passive spectators: words without actions are empty and futile. Remember that what John saw in his vision of judgment was a Book of Life, not a book of Words or Book of Intellectual Musings. The life we live, not the words we speak, reveals whether our faith is authentic.

    What did you say just above here? you said, "obey Jesus BECAUSE we are saved." Exactly. We obey because we have a new heart, a new nature. If there is no obedience, then there is probably not a new heart and probably not a new nature and thus probably not saved.

    Suppose you ask me if I love my wife? I respond with yes. But I run off and cheat on her. Do I really love her? I can say I do, but my actions show that I don't. (I do by the way love my wife!)



    Well said. Agree 100%. We do this because we are saved.
     
    #102 jbh28, Jun 22, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 22, 2014
  3. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    If Christians could not sin there would not be all the commandments given in the NT to Christians. Half of the NT is telling Christians what they should not do, like put away lying and tell your neighbor the truth.

    Eph 4:26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
    27 Neither give place to the devil.
    28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
    29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
    30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
    31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
    32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

    You are not getting it, scripture like this would not be necessary unless Paul actually EXPECTED Christians to sin. Paul didn't believe a believer instantly becomes holy, he expected it to be a long slow growing process.

    So the fact that Christians sin IS NOT proof they are not saved.

    Calvinists understand nature wrong. A sinner is not utterly compelled to sin as Calvinism teaches. Romans 6:16-18 teaches that sinners obeyed the gospel, and when they did, THEN they were made free from sin and became servants to righteousness.

    A slave can disobey his master. Being a slave to sin does not mean you cannot do right. Likewise, when we trust Jesus we become slaves to righteousness, but a slave can disobey. We can still sin, even though we are slaves to righteousness.

    When the scriptures speak of being a slave, it is speaking of BELONGING to sin, being a POSSESSION of sin like an ancient slave. It is not saying how we MUST act.

    Likewise, when we become slaves of Jesus we can still sin, and that is why it was necessary to give so many commandments in the NT to Christians to behave.


    Well, whether you treat your wife good or not, she is your wife. Likewise, we are now MARRIED to Jesus (Rom 7:4). And just as you CAN be unfaithful to your wife, you can be unfaithful to Jesus as well.

    The difference is Jesus will not take you to court and take everything you own. :thumbs:
     
  4. RLBosley

    RLBosley Active Member

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    So does the Bible.

    [Mat 24:13 NASB] 13 "But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

    [Mar 13:13 NASB] 13 "You will be hated by all because of My name, but the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

    [Rev 2:10 NASB] 10 'Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison, so that you will be tested, and you will have tribulation for ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

    You can't be saved if your faith does not endure. You need to understand that saved has several different definitions in scripture, the word does not always mean the same thing. Only those who endure to the end will be saved (glorified, spend eternity w/ God) and only those who are genuinely saved (Justified) will endure.

    See above. Nothing MacArthur said there is wrong. You just have a too narrow understanding of what the word "saved" means.

    Nope.

    Of course we deny it. It is an outright lie.

    You keep asking this "how obedient" nonsense, totally missing that that isn't the point. There is no measurement of how obedience. The whole thing is we grow in holiness and obedience to Christ. And all true believers will grow in grace and will obey. Infallibly and not without sin, but they will still obey. Those who are unchanged by the gospel, were saved saved by the gospel. 1 John and other passages make that abundantly clear.

    Possible the most accurate thing you've said in this forum that I've seen. :thumbs:

    Also the bolded above is exactly what LS teaches. You are closer to it than you realize.
     
  5. RLBosley

    RLBosley Active Member

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    I'll give you the benefit of a doubt that it was not intentional. Still, what you said was not an accurate representation of the article. Your 2-4 points are the result of justification. That is the teaching of LS.

    Do you even know what you are talking about here? I sure don't.

    It's kind of hard to not be offended when you said to me "you believe _____" when I believe no such thing. That is lying and making a false accusation in my opinion. As a Mod I would expect you to know better.

    Exactly! That is the core of LS! This is why I'm convince you have been misinformed as to what LS actually teaches because you have it right here. "his life will change. It must... How can it not change?" Amen. Exactly right!

    Agreed.

    Couple issues. First, yes LS does teach that sanctification follows justification. That's the whole point. LS combats those who have a practically optional view of sanctification-that you can be saved but give no evidence by having a changed life. Second, Paul's salvation is no different than ours, except in the events that surrounded it. We are saved in the same way, by the same gospel. And we all must submit to Christ as Lord. He is Lord!

    No red-herring. You said salvation is not a process. I simply was saying that yes it is when you take in the full scope of salvation - justified, sanctified, glorified. That is a lifelong process. Washer nor MacArthur teach or believe that sanctification takes place at conversion. Can you find any primary source where either one says that?

    I get the feeling you are getting a lot of your info from secondary sources that have an axe to grind against these men.

    Do you disagree with the following:

    If someone is truly saved, he has been made alive by the Holy Spirit and has a new heart with new desires. There is no way that one that has been “born again” can later be “unborn.” Because of His unique love for His children, God will keep all of His children safe from harm, and Jesus has promised that He would lose none of His sheep.
     
    #105 RLBosley, Jun 22, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 22, 2014
  6. jbh28

    jbh28 Active Member

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    of course. I said this yesterday when I spoke of growth. 2 Corinthians 3:18

    That's true. We have a wonderful Savior who paid for our past sins and our future ones.
     
  7. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Incredible. You’ll stop at nothing to deny sovereign grace.

    “That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.”

    DHK, tell me what part you had to do in your physical birth and it will be the same as with your spiritual birth. Absolutely nothing.

    No. It leads to the correct understanding.

    No, it’s explained in several places in the scriptures but you deniers of sovereign grace refuse to accept the fact that you have nothing to do with your eternal salvation, that it’s all of God. You insist on inserting the will of man into the birth from above which is just as asinine as insisting you had something to do with your parents bringing you into this world.

    But he that doeth the truth cometh to the light, that his works may be made manifest, that they have been wrought in God. Jn 3:21

    That’s the correct understanding of the order, FIRST God works within THEN come to Christ.

    12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
    13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. Jn 1

    That’s the correct understanding of the order, FIRST born of God THEN come to Christ.

    He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life;......Jn 3:36

    .....He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life,...Jn5:24

    ... He that believeth hath eternal life. Jn 6:47

    That’s the correct understanding of the order, FIRST made alive THEN come to Christ.
     
    #107 kyredneck, Jun 23, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 23, 2014
  8. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Do those advocating for it see then that there are no such thing as 'carnal" Christians, that either one has sold out all for jesus, or else just professing a false faith?
     
  9. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    the jailor asked Apostle pul "What MUST O do to be saved?"

    Did paul explain to him that salvation required him to be willing and able to fully cubmit all areas of his lost life unto Jesus, or just to receive him now as His Lord/Saviour thru faith?
     
  10. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    That is a good post, as we nee to realise that we have been saved by Grace of God alone, received thru faith in Jesus alone, and NOW being saved, we are to walk in a way to reflect that truth!

    Its just there is progessive sauctification involved here, there are maturity levels to be reached, so NONE ever gets to where Jesus is always obeyed 24/7 basis!

    That would be sinless perfection..
     
  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    You are making good points here, as the true Christian will indeed be transforming more into the image of jesus after salvation, but that is the work of the Holy Spirit to do that, and think some LDS think that all of us get matured all at the same time, as if we cannot any longer act against him being now our Lords, that there is no room for carnal christianity in any fashion, that unless we are willing and able to surrender all, we cannot be saved?

    Does this mean that ALL LDS advocates have sold off all their materal possessions as the Apostles did, and followed Jesus as missionaries/evangelists then?
     
  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Saving faith is the one that comes from the Holy spirit to us as sinners, that enables us to call upon the name of the Lord jesus to get saved!

    Demons refuse to accept jesus as their Lord/saviour, in rebellion against Him, know that God is God, but refuses to bow fown to him...

    Saving faith is that moment when we bow our kness to him as our Lord/saviour, as ONLY way to get right with God...

    Are we justified before God by faith alone in jesus, or must we have full obedience for a certail lenght of time to merit salvation from God?
     
  13. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Don't feel bad, as you posted a very good question, and Christians should be able to discuss theology without going "bonkers!"
     
  14. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    From the perspective of the father, ALL who have received jesus as Him Lord over their lives, as we are right now to God seated in high places, and will be glorified one day to be as he now is regarding the Body, but while here, we are also growing and maturing in our walk with Jesus, so some LDS teachers seem to want us to be in that fi
    nal state while here on earth, before we can claim real salvation!

    Does seem to be a combo package when taken to it extremes of RCC , as one must get sauctified enough to merit salvation, Wesylyn Holiness, having obtained statee of sinless perfection, and Inverstigation jusgement of our lives to make aure we were odedient long enough/well enough to merit final salvation!

    Know most LDS do not hold to that, but the practical aspect ids that those views seem to get to that!
     
  15. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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  16. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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  17. RLBosley

    RLBosley Active Member

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    I think there is a difference in the situations and I disagree that what you left out doesn't change the meaning. I think it clearly does, but let's move past that OK?

    Fair enough.

    Jesus said that, not to his 12 (already) disciples, but to the crowds who were following him, who did not yet believe, they only wanted to see his miracles. So Jesus himself correlates this abandoning everything, with salvation. Being a disciple of Jesus, following Jesus, and being a Christian are all the same thing. You cannot be a Christian and not be a disciple. That idea is totally foreign to scripture.

    But no one is saying what you are accusing them of saying. Washer, MacArthur, or any other LS advocate that I am aware of thinks that you need to be prepared to be a missionary immediately otherwise the person isn't saved. It emphatically is not works salvation, in any way. You have either been horribly misinformed or you have severely misunderstood everything these men teach and believe.


    No they don't. Everyone understand and acknowledges that people grow at different rates and that some are more mature in the faith than others. I have never once heard them say otherwise.


    It's funny, I actually saw this clip of Paul Washer saying this exactly, almost word for word, he calls it "preposterous" in fact. Again, you seem to be misunderstanding what these men believe because you are arguing against it, but at the same time saying everything they say!

    I agree with you 100%. I admit I snagged that from another site and read the beginning and end and missed that part until it was too late to edit. My bad. But yes I agree that God never promises to keep us safe. There is actually a really popular Christian song out right now with that as one of the lines and it makes me cringe every time I hear it...

    Anyway, if you agree with the rest of the statement, then congratulations, you believe in the perseverance of the saints.
     
  18. RLBosley

    RLBosley Active Member

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    That is a false dichotomy, assuming by "sold-out for Jesus" (I really ate that term) you mean someone is always in church always evangelizing, always reading their Bible. LS does see and affirms progression in the believers growth.

    Do you think that the jailor misunderstood what Paul meant by "Lord"? Lord is a political term, that was often applied to Caesar. I imagine the jailor better understood what it meant Paul said "the Lord Jesus" than we do.

    LDS or LS? BIG difference there my friend. :laugh:
     
    #118 RLBosley, Jun 24, 2014
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  19. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    This is a red herring.
    Let's look at the differences:
    1. We don't live in an "age of miracles," that is, the spiritual gifts have ceased.
    2. Jesus is not here in the flesh performing miracles in front of us, miracles in which he did to demonstrate his deity that not even the apostles could replicate. (Thus they followed him for his miracles).
    3. No one is following you or me for the miracles that we perform.
    4. It is speaking of Jesus, in the flesh, who could read the hearts of men, something we cannot do. This is one of the faults of LS along with Calvinism, an assumption that they can read the hearts of men--only God has this ability.
    Jesus is delineating between the saved and the unsaved. It has nothing to do with LS.
    I don't think so. In fact you only have to do a simple search to find dozens of links like this:
    http://expreacherman.com/2011/03/24/...nd-repentance/

    http://expreacherman.com/2012/08/08/...-of-salvation/


    Why is it called "Lordship" salvation?
    Because if Jesus is Lord, then you are his "disciple," and all the verses on discipleship apply to you immediately upon trusting Christ as Savior. Therefore you are a mature Christian ready "to forsake all" at the moment of justification. Nonsense. But that is what these guys teach.
    And in his last statement he says "he demands each one of you to repent of your sins and believe the gospel."
    That is not biblical; it is a works gospel.
    No man can repent of his sins. No person can even remember all of his sins much less repent of them. Nowhere in the NT does the Bible command the unbeliever to repent of their sins in order to be saved. That is a false gospel. It is heresy. It is a works salvation. The gospel is by grace through faith; not of works--repentance of sins.
    --He has a wrong view of repentance.
    I will reserve my judgment. It may be close. I believe in eternal security but I do not believe in the Calvinist view the perseverance of the saints. However, let's save that for another thread.
     
  20. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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