Loss of salvation arguements compiled...

Once you build up an understanding of scripture on a given doctrine -- but then add in enough of your own extensions so that an entire set of Bible texts "should not exist" (as we see on page one) -- this is a key indicator that you have "gone beyond what is written".

in Christ,

Bob

 

It's really not worth arguing about. I don't mind if one doesn't believe in OSAS.

But from following some of the threads here, it seems that some who don't believe in it object strenuously to it.

Why would anyone mind if a true believer believed in it? Being saved does not prevent one from sinning.

But God knows our hearts and minds. That's good enough for me.

Salvation is not a yo-yo.

 

The issue is "how much scripture are you willing to ignore to hold to man-made tradition"?

IF OSAS is really wrong then those who reject the warnings of scripture place themselves at risk by rejecting the very help God is giving them to encourage them to persevere.

in Christ,

Bob

 

For it to be wrong you have to assume that a "true believer" will believe his salvation is a license to sin.

That is a faulty assumption. But..

If you choose to have so little faith in your own salvation, perhaps in your case, your assumption is true.

Apparently I have more faith in your salvation than you do. I'm OK with that. It's too bad for you that you're not.

 

Wrong -

To discover that OSAS is fully debunked by the clear and direct reading of scripture - just read the list of texts on page one of this thread.

No "assumption" needed except "the Word of God is true and is to be believed".

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1041638#post1041638

One click away for the "unbiased objective reader"

in Christ,

Bob

 

Matt 10:22 (NAS):
but it is he who has endured until the end
that will be saved.

Matt 10:22 (Ed's translation):
but it is hewho endures until the end
that had been saved.

My translation of Greek
is just as good as the NAS;
And much easier to see
Security of the Believer.

Definition of Salvation Security:
Whatever 'not perish' and
'have everlasting life' means in this verse:

John 3:16 (KJV1611 Edition):
For God so loued ye world,
that he gaue his only begotten Sonne:
that whosoeuer beleeueth in him,
should not perish, but haue euerlasting life.

 

@BobRyan, who endures us? Are you saying I have to endure myself? Would that be a form of works based salvation if I must endure? What does enduring mean to you?

 

Best argument – to date: (Against “no-perseverance” group of OSAS)

MMAN –

II Pet 2:20-22, "For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: "The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire."

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1034131&postcount=9


SOME of the OSAS people claim to believe in eternal hell and to believe that this failure to persevere simply means that you are “OSAS Saved anyway but without persevering”.

Question:
HOW can it be WORSE? Worse to live with Christ forever than burn in hell forever??


Certainly this was a great point by MMAN - starting with post 9 of the thread linked to above!!

 

Is this a case of God saying to Himself "I have to remember to fear for if I did not spare the unbelieving Jews then neither will I spare the faithful saints who do not persevere -- so I have to remember to make them persevere"??


Rom 11:22
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness,
if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able tograft them in again.



Matt 10:22 butit is he who has endured until the end that will be saved.



1 Timothy 4:16
Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.


Heb 2:1-3
1. For this reason we must pay close attention to what have heard lest we drift away from it

Heb 3:6 but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence
and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

Heb 3:12-14
12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called ""Today,'' so that none of you will be hardened
by the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,


Heb 10:35-39
35 Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.
36 For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.
37 FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE, HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY.
38 BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; AND [b]IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM. [/b]
39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

1Cor 15:1-2
1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received,
in which also you stand,
2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

Col 1:21-23
22 He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death in order to PRESENT you before Him
Holy and Blameless and beyond reproach
23 [b]IF INDEED you CONTINUE in the faith FIRMLY established and STEADFAST and NOT MOVED AWAY[/b]
from the HOPE of the Gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven
and of which I Paul was made a minister.

 

Is it even possible to take any of these "warning texts" and turn them so instead of God warning us -- it is God warning Himself regarding the fact that He needs to stay focused and remember to make us Persevere?

Matt 18
29 ""So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, "Have patience with me and I will repay you.'
30 ""But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed.
31 ""So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened.
32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.
33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'
34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.
35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you[/b], if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.''


IF this is clearly accepted as a warning "to US" then God's enabling us to choose perseverance and to really persevere is being mixed in with our free will such that a WARNING of this type is needed - in fact a critical element of scripture in providing a complete path in salvation.

But if we assume at the start that such warnings are pointless because we are not the ones persevering only God does that and He can not possibly need to "warn Himself" -- then we have a case of "texts that should not EXIST".

And that should be a huge "clue" that our assumption is wrong.


In fact it should be a huge red-flag telling us that in the VERY place where scripture places "warning" we are inserting "peace and safety" in the Jer 6:14 style.

in Christ,

Bob

 

You are wrong.

OSAS is clearly the true Word of God.

By your reference, it seems you want to establish yourself as the ruling authority and interpreter of scripture.

I don't mind if you don't believe in OSAS. Maybe that will help you keep your life straight.

Jesus has saved me once and I won't be in need of a re-do.

If you feel like you will, I'm OK with that. I consider it unfortunate, but OK.

 

HP: How can you believe in ‘faith’ if in fact you have absolute knowledge as you claim to have? Does not the ‘possibility’ exist you could be one of those standing before the Lord and claiming to be saved, yet hear those words, “depart from me ye workers of iniquity, I never knew you?” Is it not possible that you could be deceived as to your standing before God?

Does not Scripture command us to examine ourselves to see if we are of the faith? How do you examine yourself, and what purpose would it serve if in fact you know ‘absolutely’ of your salvation?

 

Am I to doubt the words of the Lord??

John 5:24 "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life."

John 6:37 "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away."

John 10:28 "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand."

 

I think this text is indeed open to a "one can lose one's salvation" position. The word "believes" certainly does not imply that the "deal is sealed" at the point of conversion. Why can we not read this as requiring that our "belief" persist over time? The text says "whosever believes", not "whosoever has believed at one point in time in the past"

I see readings of this that do not require a OSAS conclusion - Jesus is saying that He will not drive such people away. This leaves open the possibility that the people can freely choose to turn away after an initial act of "coming unto Jesus"

Again, this text does not require a OSAS reading - it is entirely reasonable to see the set of those that can "snatch" as excluding the person himself - one cannot really "snatch oneself". So this verse leaves open the possibility of a wilfull "walking away" and loss of salvation.

I do not think the Scriptures support the OSAS position.

 

Your parsing of scripture to twist it to a meaning that suits you is not to your credit.

The words of Christ can stand alone without your help.

 

Indeed and 3 and 5 Point Calvinists would fully agree with you on that point. But there are some 4 point Calvinists and a few Arminians that would argue with you there.

Agreed.

in Christ,

Bob

 

It is left as an exercise for the reader to "see" if that one click takes you to those texts.

It is left as an exercise for the reader to SEE that page one of THIS thread is full of Bible texts showing OSAS to have failed the test of scripture just as the link points out.

Just "read those scriptures" instead of resisting them.

Nope. I believe the unbiased objective reader who scans those texts on page one of THIS thread will "get the point instantly".

And I am thankful if that is indeed the case. But having said that - I still have to hold on to the truths of scripture as we read them on page ONE of this thread.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Of course you do.

Lots of people will parse scripture, as you do, to make it fit their predetermined beliefs.

The strange part is your pressing need to make others believe as you do.

I'll stick to what the Lord actually said and leave the parsing to you, leaving you with this last body of scripture, and synopsis of scripture, for you to parse.

They are born again of incorruptible seed which yields the fruit of everlasting life (l Peter 1:23).

They stand before God clothed in the imputed (credited) righteousness of Christ, and not in their own (2 Corinthians 5:21; Romans 5:19-21).

His sheep have been given eternal life—they shall never perish (John 10:28).

Their eternal lives are forever hid with Christ in God (Colossians 3:1-3).

They are already seated in the heavenlies in Christ (Ephesians 1:3; 2:6).

The penalty for all their sin has been forever settled through the perfect and finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ (Romans 4:23-5:2; 5:6-9).

Loss of reward at the Judgment Seat of Christ is certain for the careless Christians, but not loss of salvation (l Corinthians 3:10-15).

God faithfully chastens all of His children, even to the point of taking home those who refuse their Heavenly Father's correction (Hebrews 12:6-11; 1 Corinthians 5:1-5; 11:28-32).

They have already been delivered from the wrath to come (1 Thessalonians 1:9,10; 5:8-10).

They are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption (Ephesians 4:30; Romans 8:23).

The Lord knoweth them that are His; false professors will be revealed as such at the White Throne Judgment (2 Timothy 2:19; Revelation 20 ~ 15; Matthew 7:21-23).

God is the one Who has begun the good work in the believer, and He has promised to perform it until the day of Jesus Christ; they are to "work out," not "work for "their salvation (Philippians 1:6; 2:12,13).

They are already living stones in the spiritual building of God of which Christ Himself is the Chief Cornerstone (l Peter 2:5; Ephesians 2:20-22).

They are members of the Body of Christ, each with a peculiar function and without each one, the Body would not be complete (l Corinthians 12:12-27).

They are kept by the power of God, through faith, not through the efforts or the works of the one who is saved. (l Peter 1:5).

Their incorruptible, everlasting inheritance is reserved for them by God (l Peter l:l-4).

They are God the Father's irrevocable gift to God the Son (John 17:6,7).

Backsliding is a sin, but the blood of Jesus Christ, God's Son, cleanses us from all sin (l John 1:7-9).

He is able to save them to the uttermost because Christ "ever liveth to make intercession for them" (Hebrews 7:25).

They are upon trusting Christ made "accepted in the Beloved" (Ephesians 1:6).

Nothing can separate them from the love of Christ (Romans 8:38-39).

By one offering He hath perfected forever them that are sanctified (Hebrews 10:10-14).

They cannot be unborn (John 3:6-8).

Christ dwelleth in them for ever (2 John 2).

No man can pluck the Christian out of His Father's hand, and that necessarily includes the believer himself (John 10:29).

All who are justified are finally glorified—none are lost along the way (Romans 8:28-30).

In their flesh dwelleth no good thing; they are saved by grace (undeserved favor) and not by their own works (Ephesians 2:8, 9).

The gifts and calling of God are without repentance; God will never annul His promise or cast out those who have come unto Him through Christ (Romans 11:29; John 6:37;17:2).

 

HP: This is the first passage on your list. How does this support the idea of OSAS apart from the presupposition that OSAS is true?

Just because the incorruptible seed by which they are born yields the fruit of everlasting life, how does this disprove the reality that some may indeed make shipwreck of the faith and in the end be eternally lost? Because some make shipwreck, would that disprove that indeed the incorruptible seed those are born-again receive, does not yield the fruit of everlasting life?

Because some branches of a tree are pruned and cast into the fire to be destroyed, does that preclude the notion that the branches left on the tree are indeed fruitful unto eternal life?

 

This does not really sound like much of an argument. And you have no evidence at all that I have "twisted" anything, so you should not make such a claim. To say that I "twist" something is to say that I know it means X and I claim it means Y. How would you have access to what I know - you only see what I claim?

In any event, people will probably assess my arguments on their own merits and they will decide whether what I propose is reasonable. Let ideas compete freely.