Loss of salvation arguements compiled...

HP: May I suggest a good discussion group for you that deals in the area of guide dogs? :laugh:

Seriously GE, other than a 'not so sly personal attack,' what do such comments add to the discussion or debate? Wy not try posting some input that is helpful in aiding the list to a better understanding of the truth.

 

John 15 records a parable of Jesus’. There is the ‘vine’, representing Jesus. There are the branches; they all are ‘in me’, i.e., in Jesus, who is ‘the vine’ – figuratively speaking, not absolutely or literally, which is impossible.
The ‘branches’ represent two ‘types’ of branches; only the two. The ‘branches’ are not a figure for each individual human, by no means! They represent either, those ‘individuals’ (collectively) who do not bear fruit, and that, because of being not-fruit-bearing-branches, are “taken away”.

A wine farmer will tell you these not-fruit-bearing-branches just steal the fruit-bearing branches’ sunlight. Maybe a few will be left on the vine to help photosynthesis; they are not given a hope to someday start bearing fruit. So those with no use to the benefit of the fruit-bearing branches, are cut out and thrown away as they never were of any use anyway. In the parable it seems not a single one of the non-fruit-bearing-branches meant anything to the Husbandman. Now who is going to argue with Him He should have been more patient with those useless branches? (I know of one if I’m not mistaken.)

As for the other, single, ‘type’ of branches. They too do not represent believers individually, but all of such individuals in whom Jesus says He, abides (5b, “… and I in him abideth”), collectively.

This parable is about “The True VINE”, in the first and last analysis – not about the branches. The parable is aimed at teaching Jesus’ followers their dependence on Him, as the branches are dependent on the vine! – “Without Me ye can do nothing”.

Please note that no branch can do anything by his own ability – not even remove itself from the branch! That is meant absolutely and literally in the parable, because the Father decides when and where and which branch, He, may ‘take away’. We are also told the Father takes away only, not-fruit-bearing-branches – “every branch in the vine that bears no fruit” (vs 2)– but He takes away no, fruit-bearing branches, ever!

So could the fruit-bearing branches have the ability to cut themselves out from amongst the others of the same or of the different, no-fruit-bearing-branches? Not at all! In another parable (The parables must contribute to the understanding of one another because parables are not perfect examples.), Jesus tells us the husbandman erected a fence around the vineyard, so that nobody from outside may cause harm to it. So we have the double security the fruit-bearing-branches are unable to sever themselves from the vine. It is the faithfulness of the Good Husbandman that assures they stay in the vine – not the branches by virtue of some inherent capability or some natural freedom. The day and instant it would be separated from the vine – by way of supposition said – it would die. The fact it stays alive is by staying in the vine and by not being removed by the husbandman. It has no life or will of its own. It is a parable, yet true.

But could the branches in themselves have the choice or the ability to either bear fruit or no fruit, and so have the choice or the ability to get themselves cut off and thrown out? Could such a quality be the determining factor whether the branch stays in the vine or is cut out of the vine? “Without Me you can do nothing!” The branch can’t even fool the husbandman so as to have itself cut off and taken away.

How is that, possible? Is the branch really left powerless and helpless – ‘like a robot without batteries’? The answer is the deciding factor! “No more can ye, except, ye abide in Me!” (4c) You will abide in Me not of yourself, but of the husbandman’s goodwill, and … because, “you are clean through the Word I have spoken to you!” You are cut clean of all self-will and self-ability; you are ‘stripped to the branch’; not a leave for own energy-generation is left on you. “I have spoken to you: Abide in Me!” is the power and the life behind the life of the branch, useless, or fruit-bearing.

There’s the secret! While baring the branch of every extrinsic value through the Word Spoken, it is emptied of all intrinsic power, and left –left in the vine’s life– completely and utterly, helpless and self-less. So that God can work in him and through him. (Calvin: The Sabbath is meant for us to rest from our own works, so that God can work within us His own works.) So that He, through us, can bring forth much and splendid fruit. The Word of God shall not return to Him empty.

The fruit-bearing branch is, “in, the vine”. It is not (in this parable), ‘engrafted’. It did not of itself protrude from the vine; it has been there all the time. It bears fruit, or it bears no fruit.

Two things, no, three, determine whether it bears fruit, or does not bear fruit. “The branch cannot bear fruit of itself.” (4)

One. It must first be “cleansed” and “be, clean”, in order to bear fruit.
How? Through the Word God has spoken in Christ.
Two. It must ‘abide’ in its very original condition of total dependence, “in the vine”.
How? Through the Father deciding and taking away or not taking away, but leaving the brach, in order to ‘abide’ … in peace, waiting on a faithful Husbandman to protect it from the enemy, to feed it through the Vine, and to keep it clean of any diverting energy channels, so that it can bear fruit, and fulfill its redemption from having been created a non-fruit-bearing branch.

Three. “Ye shall ask what ye will, and, it shall be done, unto you.” You shall not be able to boast, ‘I, abode in the vine; I, grafted myself in; I, persevered, I earned, my blessings!’ On the contrary, You shall ask what you want: Thy will be done, and it, the Father’s will, shall be done unto you.

Christ only; grace only; glory to God only. This parable from John 15. Recognise the warning against the false security of free-will!

Post script: Why the Father hasn't left a single non-fruit-bearing-branch on or in the vine: So that the only help to live and the only source of fruit-bearing, shall be God only.
... and, so that it will never be said, I was never given the choice!

 

Well said Ken!

in Christ,

Bob

 

answer to yourquestion. Though there has been much debate on the subject over the years, I believe that the Bible is very explicit on this point. In fact, the book of 1 John was written to this point: "These things I have written to you who believe in the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life.(1 John 5:13)." Notice that the Apostle says you now have eternal life. We don't get eternal life after we die... we have it right now, when we believe.

romans 8:35-39 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written: "For Your sake we are killed all day long; We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter."
37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us.
38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come,
39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

john 10: 28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand."
:godisgood:

i hear some say what about balspheming the holy spirit or apostasey , thats another thread if any care to start one .

 

Matt 18 is clear on the subject of "Forgiveness Revoked"
Gal 5 is clear on "Being SEVERED from Christ, AND fallen from Grace"
Romans 11 is clear on those who were REMOVED from Christ when they failed to continue in faith.


Matt 18:21-35giveness revoked.
John 15:1-6 removed from the vine of Christ – withered -cast into the fire
Romans 11 – Removed from the tree of Christ – because of unbelief.




Best argument – to date: (Against “no-perseverance” group of OSAS)

MMAN –

II Pet 2:20-22, "For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: "The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire."

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1034131&postcount=9


SOME of the OSAS people claim to believe in eternal hell and to believe that this failure to persevere simply means that you are “OSAS Saved anyway but without persevering”.

Question:
HOW can it be WORSE? Worse to live with Christ forever than burn in hell forever??

 

Certainly at the point of salvation those who are lost are joined to Christ -- they are for the first time "in Him" they are "In Christ". But do they stay there? Do they choose to ABIDE in that condition or do they "lose their first love" and fall away?

John 15
1 ""I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 ""Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.
3 "" You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 "" Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.
5 ""I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
6 ""If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

 

The argument has been raised -- on the MATT18 vs OSAS thread if there are any among those where who reject the false teaching of OSAS - who also accept that Matt 18 warns us of the problem of "forgiveness revoked" other than me.

Comments?

in Christ,

Bob

 

So far Bob, Andre, Ken, HP have come out in favor of the texts that so clearly debunk OSAS --

Any others?

 

You are wrong in your assumptions, Bob.

1. Those who believe in the perseverance of the saints do not "admit that the very EXISTENCE of the text is in opposition to their false doctrine." They just understand the texts in a different way to you. They don't say, "Well, I know the bible says "X", but I am going to believe "Y" anyway". If they are Christians, they would not even want to deny the existence of any part of the bible.

2. In a later post you list Bob, Andre, Ken, and HP as having "come out in favor" of certain texts of the bible, but is any Christian against any bible text? Christians differ in their understandings of various teachings found in the bible (e.g. eschatology, prophecy) because on this earth, not one of us has perfect knowledge of the Word of God. But a genuine Christian will not be against any part of the bible. This Board would be very quiet if we all had the same understanding of God's Word.

 

David -

I do not argue that everyone who believes in OSAS - tries to blame me for the existence of the texts that debunk OSAS. Rather I show that I am specifically referencing the case of post 135


One Post -- one postER.

My response to the allegation that the mere quote/content of that text is "Bob's logic"

As if the wording "whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence..." is "Bob's Logic"

in Christ,

Bob

 

Sorry for any misunderstanding, Bob. It is my fault for trying to answer two of your posts at the same time.

 

Which is why I agrue that there is hope and possible success in these dialoges even beyond the "unbiased objective reader".

But if someone simply quotes the fact that I am quoting scripture and then calls that argument "Bob's Logic" they are in fact admitting that the wording of scripture itself appears to refute their own views so they try to attribute it "to me".

A huge red flag for anyone reading.

In the case of Matt 18 -- is there a "detail" that I have incorrect?

in Christ,

Bob

 

HP: Contrary to GE, I for one believe your logic is indeed sound. :thumbs: :laugh:

 

Always good to have a show of hands HP so that the posts don't melt down to the form "Bob is the only one that thinks..."

I hope I can return the favor some time.

in Christ,

Bob

 

BobRyan's logic is good, his starting point* is in error.

* starting point in logic means:
-- basic definitions
-- basic statements (in the 15-19th centuries AXIOM, in the 20-21st centuries ASSUMPTION)

Here is the big speck in his eye:

Jesus' Salvation is forever

Proof text:

Joh 3:16-17 (KJV1611 Editon):
For God so loued ye world, that he gaue
his only begotten Sonne: that whosoeuer
beleeueth in him, should not perish,
but haue euerlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Sonne into
the world to condemne the world:
but that the world through
him might be saued.

Note that 'should not perish, but have everlasting life'
in John 3:16 is equal to 'saved' in John 3:17.

QED: OSAS (Once Saved by Jesus, Always Saved by Jesus)

The error in the starting position means errors
follow (even though the logic is correct), errors at
the start of the logic can lead both to errors and
correct statements following - but you can't always tell
which one has).

The next big speck is that a misunderstanding of
Romans Chapter 11 results from the initial statements.
Romans 11 is talking about the salvation of large
groups of people, not individuals.

Directions to heaven:
turn right and go straight.

Anyway, Bob is NOT the only one who believes this way,
so we can't all jump on Bob.

Sorry, this is supposed to be a compilation of 'Loss of Salvation arguments'
and I keep arguing One cannot loose God's Salvation.

 

Indeed - as HP recently pointed out - I am not the only one that embraces those texts on page 1 and page 2 and page 3 of this thread.

My argument is that those who cling to OSAS in spite of those texts - will have to at some point -show how each one of those texts can be turned around in favor of OSAS.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Best argument – to date: (Against “no-perseverance” group of OSAS)

MMAN –

II Pet 2:20-22, "For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: "The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire."

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1034131&postcount=9


SOME of the OSAS people claim to believe in eternal hell and to believe that this failure to persevere simply means that you are “OSAS Saved anyway but without persevering”.

Question:
HOW can it be WORSE? Worse to live with Christ forever than burn in hell forever??

---------------------------------------------------

Certainly at the point of salvation those who are lost are joined to Christ -- they are for the first time "in Him" they are "In Christ". But do they stay there? Do they choose to ABIDE in that condition or do they "lose their first love" and fall away?

John 15
1 ""I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 ""Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.
3 "" You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 "" Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.
5 ""I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
6 ""If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.



Warning regarding the Need to remain faithful – OR it could be construed as God simply reminding himself that He needs to make us persevere in remaining faithful if He wants to save us.

Fallen and yet hoping to be “grafted BACK in again” into the vine of Christ!

Rom 11
18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith[/b]. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness[/b]; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And [b]they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.




24For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

 

Warnging about Forgiveness revoked – OR God reminding himself that He needs to remember to make us “forgiving” if He wants us saved.


Matt 18
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1035489&postcount=59
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1035498&postcount=64
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1035503&postcount=67

Matt 18 <[b]Forgiveness Revoked!>
29 ""So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, "Have patience with me and I will repay you.'
30 ""But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed.
31 ""So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened.
32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.
33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'
34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.
35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you[/b], if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.''
[/quote]


TRUE statement about those who ARE in Christ and joined to Christ – being SEVERED from Christ – or it could be construed as God reminding Himself that this is something that can never happen?

Severed FROM Christ and Fallen from grace

Gal 5
4 [b]You have been severed from Christ[/b], you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness.
6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.
7 You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth?