"Loving the sinner, hating the sin"

Thanks superdave and Johnv, you are both right on the money. That verse I Tim 1:15 where Paul calls himself the chief of sinners shows that he understood this well. I have thought about Paul as a missionary going into churches throughout the world. Many times I think he came face to face with his sin, with families that he had imprisoned and ruined when he was persecuting the church, perhaps with relatives of Christians he had executed. Every time he walked into a home where worship was taking place he must have been reminded of those he had persecuted and oppressed.

Granny, I have to disagree. The Lord still loves those who oppose him. That does not mean we aid them in their sin. We do not help them oppose God, but we still reach out to them who will turn from their sin. God loves sinners, he loved me. When I was a sinner and an enemy of God, he still loved me and Christ died for me. Not after I gave up my sin, but while I was still lost (Rom 5:8)

Yes, the wrath of God abides on the lost (John 3:36), but even as his wrath abides on them because of their sin, even then God loves them, is long-suffering in his grace, and is not willing that any should perish (II Pet 3:9).

 

Jesus told us the story of the Pharisee and the publican.

I will tell you this in modern terms. Every time we look at some strung out, meth-addict, prostitute, junkie or homosexual and say, "Thank God I am not like they are," we are resurrecting the spirit of that Pharisee. I said it from the pulpit not more than two months ago when you look at that white trash scum that you think your better than you better think again because you are no better than they are and in fact what you are, and what I am, is one of them. The only difference in my life and their's is the wonderful gift of God that I received but never deserved. And that same gift is offered freely to them. But none of us Pharisees will get up and tell them because when the truth is told we would rather not have them in our pretty churches. You know they are dirty. They smell bad. They dress poorly and smoke. They have tattoos and use vulgar language. We can't have them around, think of the influence they might have on our children. Sadly I think many Christians think that way, including myself at times.

 

Debby and NCT, you're both correct. The hebrew word translated "hate" does not mean "to withhold love from". It referrs to an intense dislike. We English speaking folk tend to equate love and hate as opposing. In our western understanding, we miss the scriptural point. We're not called to hate the sinner. We're called to love the sinner, even if we dislike that person and his actions.

Granny, you're welcome to, and I encourage you to, dislike what the Lord dislikes. If you dislike a person because of his actions, do so within the scope of righteousness. But do not by any means withhold your love from them, for that is unrighteous and unscriptural. Remember too, that God also dislikes you and me, because of the sins we commit. Still he loves us, regardless of our sinfulness.

Yes, Paul said he is the chief of all sinners. What incredible humility and faith! I want to be like him!

 

Jesus knows the heart of all men - we cannot fool Him. Remember that He said that some have cried "Lord Lord" but will be told to "depart from me" at the judgment.

I think these will be those who talked a holy game but who lived lives of self-righteous judgementalism. These are like the whited sepulchres! If the Holy Spirit lives within then a person will not desire to live a life of worldly weakness. One who can in good conscience say that he/she hates other people does not sound like a person who has been born again. Sounds like a Pharisee.

 

I've read and heard many times that the use of the word "hate" in the verses you refer to does not mean hate as we say it. It means God is giving favor to one over the other. Jesus did not tell us to hate our family, but to choose Jesus over the family and to make him the priority and focus.

I do not in any way condone sin nor do I water down God's wrath on sin. But we never told to hate anyone in the way some here are talking about.

In fact, I find some of these posts very discouraging. I guess you all would have hated me before I was saved. Thank God, and I mean that literally, God loved me. Boy, am I glad it wasn't up to you guys!

 

I think many people mistake what love is. If I do not speak to someone about Christ or attempt to show them the error of their ways, I do not love them.
If I see someone committing a sin and remain what society calls polite, that is not love.
It is VERY hard not to mingle self righteousness with speaking the truth though.
Last night was an example of this for me. I came off too strong, as I allowed my own emotion to creep in.
Here's what happened.
I was in my apartment last night, attempting to have a bit of peace and quiet to reflect on my grandmother, who passed away earlier this week. I sang hymns and thought. Outside a group of neighbors was gathered. They were being loud and obnoxious, and some were intoxicated. Most of what was being said were extremely inappropriate types of jokes and comments.
I put on headphones and tried to ignore it all, but could hear it over the headphones.
I prayed for them. I prayed for God to give me the strength and courage to say something.
I didn't have the nerve to at first, but it continued and as it went on I became more frustrated.
Finally I prayed for God to help me control my anger and know the right thing to say, then sat for a bit letting him work on my anger.
Then I walked out. As soon as I walked out another disgusting thing was said and a few of the women there started cackling like hyenas. I felt anger rise again.
I stood there a second, and loudly said "Excuse me".
They all stopped short and stared. Then instead of a quick prayer to ask God again for the right words, I let nervousness and anger take over, although I tried to do the right thing.
I ended up asking loudly and firmly if it ever occurred to them to show a bit of respect for their neighbors and for the kids in my home sleeping who had to be woke up by conversation inappropriate for anyone, let alone children. I pointed out that they had a small child out there with them, then announced that their time would be much better spent in going home and reading their bibles, in having conversations about how they could better themselves spiritually and keep their minds out of the gutter and on better things.
I don't remember word for word what I said, but that was the basics. I turned around and walked back inside, and heard someone yell something AFTER I shut my door, so I went right back out and asked for it to be repeated. We went back and forth for a minute, then one of the other girls started going off on how she saw me with a bottle of wine once. So then we talked for a minute over that, a few other points of Christian life, and I went in. Nobody was happy.
I went in and thanked God I didn't get hurt. LOL Then I asked for forgiveness.
A little while later I went back out and found they had all gone to the back of the complex and were talking quietly. I walked out and apologized not for what I said, but for how I said it.
They all apologized to me, and we ended up with quite a good conversation about church, God, the bible, etc.. I was asked why I never take my children out with them to the barbecues and other things they do together and that I'm invited to. I spoke plainly and told them about my beliefs, how I want my children raised, and what I don't want them around.
Most agreed, one gave excused of why she wasn't going to church right now, one argued a bit over what my kids would be like when they were older if they weren't exposed to this type of stuff now. In the end she agreed with my concept of raising them appropriately and letting them be responsible for their own choices when they were on their own, on me as a mother making their choices until then, to a point.
Did I show hatred in what I did? To a point, yes I did at first. I went out and let pride play a part in how I spoke. It didn't control it, but it was there and obvious enough.
Could I have shown more hatred? Yes. If I would have said nothing, or if I'd have simply requested them to move or quiet down without speaking of God I would have hated them.
I did not feel love for their bodies when I walked out there, but I felt compassion for their souls and I think that's a better definition of love than what most of us use as a definition of it.
Now I can only thank God that he found a way to work through my vanity and pride to let me present some basic truths to some people last night. For giving me the courage to go out there not knowing who all was there or what their reactions might have been. For keeping me safe.
That was love too.
Gina

PS told a friend of mine that this could work for me...call myself an evangelist and pass a plate around after I get done yelling next time...

 

AMEN!

 

Ps 139:21-22
21 Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?
22 I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.
(KJV)

 

Dr Bob,

"And this post DIDN'T sound like a Pharisee judging the other side?"

Nope!!

Jesus knew the Pharisees could talk a good game but under it all they were the most impure of heart.

I don't know what type of people you interact with most days - but in the medical community most are lost . Do you know why many have told me they are not Christians?

Because, they say, Christians are a bunch of self-righteous, judgmental hypocrites. And the statements in some of these posts would typify why one would say that.

I for one want people to see my life and go, "hey that guy's got something different! I want it too!"

It's pretty clear that Jesus expects us to show love to everyone - since we are ALL sinners. I don't suppose you feel the same disdain for the young college kid in a frat sitting on a park bench smooching his girlfriend, knowing that they are almost certainly getting drunk and sleeping together on a regular basis? Is the homosexual somehow worse? Like I explained before - it's human nature to persecute those different from us. By saying it's OK to "hate" anyone were simply letting human nature take over and (ugh!) stamping God's approval on it. Shame shame.

The unrepentent sinner WILL stand in judgement before Christ one day. Until then you and I should do our best to show Christ to the sinners - all sinners.