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Featured Luke 1:35 And The Real Human Nature of Jesus Christ

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by SavedByGrace, Dec 2, 2021.

  1. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
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    “And the Angel answered and said vnto her, The holy Ghost shall come vpon thee, and the power of the Highest shall ouershadow thee. Therefore also that holy thing which shall bee borne of thee, shall bee called the sonne of God” (KJV 1611)

    The greater majority of English Bible’s, omit two very important words in the verse, “ἐκ σοῦ”, literally, “out of you”, that is Mary. This is clear testimony against the early heretics, that Jesus Christ actually derived His “human nature”, from The Virgin Mary, apart from sin, which the Holy Spirit would have removed.

    A few of the heretics in the early Church, actually denied that the “human nature” in Jesus Christ, at His Incarnation, and thereafter, is consubstantial with ours.

    “The doctrines of Valentinus are described fully by Irenæus (I. cap. i.) from whom S. Cyril takes this account. Valentinus, and Basilides, and Bardesanes, and Harmonious, and those of their company admit Christ’s conception and birth of the Virgin, but say that God the Word received no addition from the Virgin, but made a sort of passage through her, as through a tube, and made use of a phantom in appearing to men.” (Theodoret, Epist. 145.)

    "To docetic thinkers the divinity of Christ presented no difficulties. It was the humanity (with its close relation to matter) that they could not acknowledge. It was only the channel by which He came into the world 'Jesus', they said, 'passed through Mary as water through a tube'. He was 'through' or 'by means of', but not 'of' Mary; that is to say, He derived from her no part of His being. 'For, just as water passes through a pipe, without receiving any addition from the pipe, so too the Word passed through Mary, but was not derived from Mary" (J F Bethune-Baker; Early History of Christian Doctrine, pp.80-81)

    The earliest Greek manuscript to have these words “ἐκ σοῦ”, is the 5th century Codex Ephraemi.

    However, much before this time, we have this reading in Tatian’s Diatessaron, which was written originally in Greek, and dates between AD 150-170, which reads:

    “Holy Spirit will come, and the power of the Most High shall rest upon thee, and therefore shall he that is born of thee be pure, and shall be called the Son of God”

    We also have the explicit testimony of the following Church Fathers, who read “ἐκ σοῦ” in their New Testaments

    JUSTIN MARTYR (A.D.100-165) - Dia Typh, Chapter C. ANF, p.249

    “when the angel Gabriel announced the good tidings to her that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her, and the power of the Highest would overshadow her: wherefore also the Holy Thing begotten of her is the Son of God”

    IRENAEUS (A.D.130-200) - Adv Her Bk III.xxi.4

    “The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee ; therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God ;"

    TERTULLIAN (A.D.160-225) - Adv Prax xxvi, xxvii

    “The Spirit of God shall come upon you, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow you; therefore also the Holy Thing that shall be born of you shall be called the Son of God”; Therefore that Holy Thing which shall be born of you shall be called the Son of God.

    HIPPOLYTUS (A.D.170-236) - Adv all Her VI. xxx

    “wherefore that which shall be born of you shall be called holy”

    CYPRIAN (A.D.200-258) - Test against the Jews, sec 1

    “Wherefore that holy thing which is born of thee shall be called the Son of God."

    NOVATIAN (A.D.200-258), Concerning The Trinity, Ch. xxiv. 6 times.

    “The Holy Spirit shall come upon you, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow you; therefore also the Holy Thing which is born of you shall be called the Son of God”

    GREGORY THAUMATURGUS (A.D.213-270) - Twelve Topics on the Faith, Topic IV. 4 times

    “The Holy Ghost shall come upon you, and the power of the highest shall overshadow you: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of you shall be called the Son of the Highest”

    PETER OF ALEXANDRIA (d.A.D.311) - frag from the book on the Godhead; sermon of theology

    “The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee; therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God” (2); “The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee; therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God." (9)

    ATHANASIUS (A.D.296-373) - four Discourses against the Arians, Dis IV.32

    “The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the Power of the Highest shall overshadow thee therefore also that Holy Thing which shall be born of thee, shall be called the Son of God .”

    And many others.

    It is also found in the Old Latin Versions, made from the Greek New Testament, and dates from the 2nd century. Also The Old Syriac Peshitta, 2nd cent; both from the Greek. The scholar Jerome also includes this in his Revision of the Old Latin, the Vulgate, also from the Greek.

    Luke 1:35, with “ἐκ σοῦ”, which is the singular, and can only refer to Mary; is what Matthew writes in his Gospel:

    “And Jacob fathered Joseph, the husband to be of Mary, of whom Jesus was born, who is called Christ”

    The words, “of whom”, ἐξ ἧς, are singular and feminine, which excludes Joseph, the husband of Mary, as the biological father of Jesus Christ.

    The removal of these two words at a very early time, was no doubt the work of those who rejected the real humanity in the Lord Jesus Christ. However, the evidence of the early Versions and Church Fathers, is evidence beyond any doubt, to “ἐκ σοῦ”, as being part of the original Gospel of Luke.

    This is also important for the study of textual criticism, where it shows that too much weight must not be placed on the Greek manuscripts, which are the work of copyists, who could add or remove as they felt like, for theological purposes.
     
    #1 SavedByGrace, Dec 2, 2021
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2021
  2. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    The transmission of the fallen nature of the human spirit is transmitted spiritually, not biologically. Additionally Christ's spirit was the Second Person of the Trinity, thus God incarnate.

    The phrase "out of you" or by you or from you appears to be found in only a few places and so most consider the phrase to be a scribal addition.

    However, the correct view is Jesus had Mary's DNA combined with DNA supplied supernaturally. This is required by the doctrine that Jesus was the "seed" of Abraham.

    Thus Jesus was consubstantial with the Father (same divine essence) and with Mary (same human essence).

    Last point, just because an addition to the inspired text is true, does not make it inspired.
     
  3. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
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    this is unbiblical!
     
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  4. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
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    yet again your ignorance of textual studies is showing
     
  5. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Attacking the knowledge or credentials of an opponent, rather than addressing the position is the stock and trade of the feeble minded.
     
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  6. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
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    NET Bible footnotes are not a reliable authority as they don't give all of the evidence. Regardless of the manuscripts, you cannot ignore the huge testimony of the Greek Church fathers, who read "out of you" in their Greek New Testaments. This has much more weight in textual studies than a handful of manuscripts. Also, the readings of the Old Latin and Peshitta, both from the Greek, are much older than any of the Greek manuscripts that omit these words.
     
  7. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    It is my understanding those added words ἐκ σοῦ are not from the Holy Spirit, but from the Latin of the Roman Catholic Church. My question that I have, what is the earliest Latin manuscript that has that reading? And if it were originally in the Greek, why is it not in any ancient Greek manuscript?
    My mistake here.
     
    #7 37818, Dec 2, 2021
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  8. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
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    then your "understanding" is wrong! How can you say "from the Latin of the Roman Catholic Church", when Church fathers in the late first century read ἐκ σοῦ in their Greek New Testaments? Further, both the Old Latin and Syriac Peshitta, were made directly from the Greek manuscripts at the time, which is 2nd century, and much older than any of the Greek manuscripts that omit the words.

    You missed what I said in the OP, that the 5th century Codex Ephraemi, does have the words.
     
  9. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    The alleged Greek never existed.

     
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  10. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Produce the quote. And the date of the copy of the quote.
     
  11. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
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    have you looked at the OP?

    JUSTIN MARTYR (A.D.100-165) - Dia Typh, Chapter C. ANF, p.249

    “when the angel Gabriel announced the good tidings to her that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her, and the power of the Highest would overshadow her: wherefore also the Holy Thing begotten of her is the Son of God”
     
  12. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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  13. SavedByGrace

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    JUSTIN MARTYR (A.D.100-165) - Dia Typh, Chapter C. ANF, p.249

    “when the angel Gabriel announced the good tidings to her that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her, and the power of the Highest would overshadow her: wherefore also the Holy Thing begotten of her is the Son of God”

    DIATESSARON (A.D.150-170) – all editions

    “Holy Spirit will come, and the power of the Most High shall rest upon thee, and therefore shall he that is born of thee be pure, and shall be called the Son of God”

    IRENAEUS (A.D.130-200) - Adv Her Bk III.xxi.4

    TERTULLIAN (A.D.160-225) - Adv Prax xxvi, xxvii

    “The Spirit of God shall come upon you, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow you; therefore also the Holy Thing that shall be born of you shall be called the Son of God”; Therefore that Holy Thing which shall be born of you shall be called the Son of God.

    HIPPOLYTUS (A.D.170-236) - Adv all Her VI. xxx

    “wherefore that which shall be born of you shall be called holy”

    CYPRIAN (A.D.200-258) - Test against the Jews, sec 1

    NOVATIAN (A.D.200-258), Concerning The Trinity, Ch. xxiv. 6 times.

    “The Holy Spirit shall come upon you, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow you; therefore also the Holy Thing which is born of you shall be called the Son of God”

    GREGORY THAUMATURGUS (A.D.213-270) - Twelve Topics on the Faith, Topic IV. 4 times

    “The Holy Ghost shall come upon you, and the power of the highest shall overshadow you: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of you shall be called the Son of the Highest”

    PETER OF ALEXANDRIA (d.A.D.311) - frag from the book on the Godhead; sermon of theology [From the Acts of the Council of Ephesus, i. and vii. 2.—Galland.]

    ATHANASIUS (A.D.296-373) - four Discourses against the Arians, Dis IV.32

    “The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the Power of the Highest shall overshadow thee therefore also that Holy Thing which shall be born of thee, shall be called the Son of God .”

    CYRIL OF JERUSALEM (A.D.315-386) - lectures XII, 32; XVII.6

    DIODORE (d.A.D.390) - Creed

    AMBROSE (A.D.339-397) - of the Holy Spirit, Bk III.11.79

    “The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Most High shall overshadow thee, and that Holy Thing Which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God,”

    JEROME (A.D.342-420) - to Pammach against John of Jeru

    “The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee. Wherefore that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.”

    AUGUSTINE (A.D.354-430) - Enchiridion, ch 37

    “That holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.”

    JOHN CASSIAN (A.D.360-435) - Conference of Abbot Serapion, ch.V

    ADAMANTIUS (early 4th cent)

    EPHRAEM (A.D.306-373)

    EPIPHANIUS (A.D.315-403)

    AMPHILOCHIUS (A.D.340-395)

    LEO "the great" (d.461 - Dilectissimo Fratri Flaviano Leo; II, 82.

    “The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee and the power of the Most High shall overshadow thee: and therefore that Holy Thing also that shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of GOD,”

    JOHN DAMASCUS (A.D.675-749)

    HILARY

    “The Holy Spirit shall came upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee. Therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God”

    Apocryphal

    The Protoevangelium of James (The Protoevangelium of James is a text, to which scholars at times also refer as the Infancy Gospel of James. Its origins go back as far as the second century CE… Indeed, there continues to be a strong scholarly consensus that the story originated in Greek in the second century. Cornelia Horn,). This Confirms the early date as found in extra-Biblical writings.
     
  14. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
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    were you meant to say something here, or just quote me?
     
  15. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    What is the date of the earliest copy of it?
     
  16. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
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    about 200 years older than any of the Greek manuscripts that omit the words. You cannot ignore the Greek Church Fathers, who used Greek New Testaments, and not Latin!
     
  17. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    The ESV has a foot note some have the reading "of you.". The MLV includes the reading in italics meaning the reading is missing from the Majority Text. The 1901 ASV has the foot note, Some ancient authorities insert of thee.
     
    #17 37818, Dec 2, 2021
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  18. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    The Greek church father. The date of the copy of quote in Greek, not Latin.
     
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  19. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
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    the famous passage in John's Gospel, known as the Pericope Adulterae, and omitted in many of the modern Versions of the Bible. The oldest Greek manuscript for this passage, is the Codex Bezae, dating from the 5th century. However, much earlier than this time, the scholar Jerome wrote, that this passage was found "many Greek and Latin manuscripts". Here we can see that Jerome says that he saw this passage in MANY Greek manuscripts, much before the time of the Codex Bezae. Where are these? Obviously either lost or destroyed. Augustine says of this passage, "Certain persons of little faith, or rather enemies of the true faith, fearing, I suppose, lest their wives should be given impunity in sinning, removed from their manuscripts the Lord's act of forgiveness toward the adulteress, as if he who had said, Sin no more, had granted permission to sin."

    Don't get too hung-up of Greek manuscripts.
     
  20. SavedByGrace

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