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Luke 8...everybody in the N.T. must have been hillbillies

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Frogman, Apr 5, 2003.

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  1. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    That is reading vss. 40-48 as correctly as man is able to read the word of God. Let us draw your attention to compare the man Jarius and the woman with an issue of Blood; the man is mentioned first, but the woman is dealt with first.

    Then let us draw our attention toward the woman as she is coming to the Lord, what is her attitude?

    what is her distress?

    Now let's give attention to what healed her.

    Then to the knowledge of the Lord of 'virtue' having left himself and going into another (do we wish to believe even in this multitude he knew not who touched him and who received this virtue?)

    Not leaving out the woman's testimony, but moving along look at vs. 48

    Where Christ said: '...thy faith hath made thee whole;...'

    According to scripture, even to the words of Christ this faith is personal to the woman. Yet according to scripture she received her healing only after touching the 'border of his garment' then immediately she was healed.

    At what moment did the woman believe she would be healed, at what moment was her faith made alive to her?

    Was it only a well wish that when she touched him she would be healed?

    Or was it a solid faith, ground in the knowledge of God, the power of God, and that he was able to perform that which he had promised?

    Was her faith alive as she made her way to Christ? I believe so, why else would she, in her condition battle her way through the thronged multitude from the premise of a human faith that when she did touch Christ she would be healed.

    I have heard preachers use this and use her faith as being the agent of her healing to great effect, especially among young people, however, I don't believe I had ever heard this used in such a way that God planted this faith in this woman and based upon that faith she came to Christ (in full accordance with Heb. 11.6

    Our Lord gave this message to me this past Sunday evening to preach and I was and have been greatly blessed because of my obedience to him. I have shared it with you that the Lord may be pleased to bless you as well.

    I preached it, and I believe it fully in the faith that God quickened this woman who was destitute and in the weakness which she no doubt suffered from her disease, this God quickened faith brought her to Christ.

    There may be some of you who disagree with my view, this is alright, but show me where her faith was before coming to Christ.

    Were she to be coming only in the faith she could manage to gather and this faith were not a divine gift then she must have gathered a lot of strength from a seriously delapidated body.

    I believe this is a testimony to the truth that faith is instilled in the beleiver, based on this faith 'whosoever' will comes to Christ in humble repentance.

    God Bless.
    Bro. Dallas
     
    #1 Frogman, Apr 5, 2003
  2. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    In the words of this old hillbilly... seem to me the given faith allowed for the livin faith... I see nothing in Hebrews 11 that states nothing less... How could Gods children go through all they went through if it was their faith alone?

    Something moved them toward their goal whatever that goal was... It was the given faith that they had knowing God would be with them every step of the way... Even in the face of death!

    It wasn't a faith that was earned but because of the faith given... It gave strength to the faith livin... Where with God all things are possible and nothing is withholden from his children who he loved before the foundation of the world.

    What a gift from the Lord of all glory... So thankful we should be for it... For as the scripture say... All men have not faith!... Brother Glen The Primitive Baptist [​IMG]
     
    #2 tyndale1946, Apr 5, 2003
  3. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    I agree Bro. Glen, and as the Arminians are wont to be quiet on this topic, perhaps this means they are in agreement as well, they just 'choose' not to sound off...what think ye?

    Bro. Dallas [​IMG]
     
    #3 Frogman, Apr 7, 2003
  4. ScottEmerson

    ScottEmerson Active Member

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    Ah, personally, I perceive Frogman running a circle around the text to try to disprove a plain meaning.

    Faith inspires action.
     
    #4 ScottEmerson, Apr 7, 2003
  5. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    I can't see a meaning any more plain that that the woman believed before coming to Christ. How can there be any other true and plain sense of it? If she had no belief, then why did she bother to come at all?

    Besides, Frogs can't run.

    Bro. Dallas
     
    #5 Frogman, Apr 7, 2003
  6. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    I thought that was what he was saying. It was faith that inspired her to take the action of seeking Christ, but she wasn't healed until she touched His garment.
     
    #6 npetreley, Apr 7, 2003
  7. swaimj

    swaimj <img src=/swaimj.gif>

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    The story of the woman is very interesting in its context. Note that in verse 42, the text, speaking of Jesus says "the people thronged him" and in verse 45 Peter says "the multitude throng thee". The word for "thronged" is interesting because Luke uses it nowhere else in Luke and Acts. Except for one place earlier in the chapter; verse 7. Speaking of the seed which fell among thorns, the thorns "choked it" the text says. "Choked" and "throng" are the same greek word.

    In context, Luke gives the parable of the sower. Then he tells three stories of Jesus' miracles in which people respond in faith--the kinds of faith we find in the parable of the sower.

    Note that in the woman's case, the seed fell into thorny ground, that is, she had troubling circumstances in her life which could easily have choked out the gospel in her life. Yet, she persevered and despite the problems she had (sick and in poverty) and despite the "throng" she made her way to Jesus.

    Two thoughts:
    1. True faith motivates a person to persevere in their Christian life. While faith and works are theologically separate, in the outworking of Christianity in our lives, they blend together.

    2. The kind of ground into which the gospel falls does not determine the person's response to the gospel. In the parable, seed into thorny ground was choked and died. The faith was not genuine. Yet though the woman was thorny ground, she had true faith that bore fruit. So the parable does not teach that God soveriegnly prepares some to faith and others to destruction, but it teaches that the key to true faith is the response of the person. That is why Jesus appeals to all of his hearers in verse 18 to "take heed how you hear".
     
    #7 swaimj, Apr 7, 2003
  8. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    Then you set up in an individual a fear as to whether they have a true faith or not. When the faith is given of God it can be nothing but true.

    Bro. Dallas
     
    #8 Frogman, Apr 7, 2003
  9. swaimj

    swaimj <img src=/swaimj.gif>

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    The issue with faith is not its source but its object. If the object of a person's faith is Christ, they have salvation.

    Likewise, the text does not tell us the source of the woman's faith (though Jesus said it was "her faith"). We certainly know the object of her faith. It was Jesus.
     
    #9 swaimj, Apr 7, 2003
  10. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    Froggy was right. If the object of a person's faith is their money, they have worries and fear, but don't realize why. If they have the Spirit of God, they do not have the spirit of fear, because fear has to do with punishment. (Where have I heard that before?)
     
    #10 npetreley, Apr 7, 2003
  11. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    'Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord...' perhaps this is paraphrased, but we know who said it, and we know that it strongly (to use popular language) "suggests" not all 'faith' is saving 'faith'.

    Bro. Dallas
     
    #11 Frogman, Apr 7, 2003
  12. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    I see her faith as leading her astray all those years, while she sought healing, but finally the faith imparted to her by the Holy Spirit, led her to the source, object and end of her faith.

    Christ said it was her faith then because in all appearances to man it is our's, but it is granted to us from God.

    Bro. Dallas
     
    #12 Frogman, Apr 7, 2003
  13. swaimj

    swaimj <img src=/swaimj.gif>

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    If the object of a person's faith is Jesus Christ, that is saving faith. Surely you are not saying that a person could have faith in Jesus and yet not be saved.
    Her faith for "all those years" was not in Jesus. It was in doctors, cures, etc. When she heard of Jesus she believed he could help and put her faith in him. This faith motivated her to go to Jesus where she was actually healed. I agree that the Spirit working through the hearing of the message of Christ produced faith in her for faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ.
    Brother Dallas, I can't help but think that this is convoluted reasoning on your part to try to fit the story to your theology. Jesus spoke to the woman and referred to her faith as "hers". He spoke in the hearing of others and referred to her faith as "hers". Why would he say it is hers and confuse her and the audience (not to mention me!!!) if her faith was not hers. Let the text speak and stop reading things into it!
     
    #13 swaimj, Apr 7, 2003
  14. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    The tragedy here - is that the WRONG part of Luke 8 is being quoted to stress the point "YOUR faith has made you well" does NOT make the case for Calvinism.

    Worse! Luke 8:4-14 MAKES the CASE for the Arminian point EVEN MORE than "YOUR Faith has made YOU well".

    4-14 we see FOUR kinds of ground - FOUR kinds of humans.

    Roadside - "The DEAD in sin are not ever made ALIVE"

    ROCKY -- "The DEAD in sin COME TO LIFE in Christ, Faith and Belief but after some time DIE OUT".

    Thorny - "The DEAD in SIN COME to LIFE and GROW but fail to grow to FULL maturity and fruit bearing - they DIE out".

    Good soil - "The DEAD in SIN COME to LIFE and GROW and CONTINUE to GROW and bear much fruit to the end".

    OF the FOUR kinds of ground - THREE Spring to LIFE. But only 1 of the three complete the journey by STAYING alive and CONTINUING to GROW.

    What an ARMINIAN text!!

    Notice that it is NOT the case of "the LOST getting LOSTER" as the Calvinist defense often claims.

    Proclaiming the obvious in a world of grey.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #14 BobRyan, Apr 7, 2003
  15. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    Thanks brethren for the replies,

    But I remain certain of the Sovereignty of God and most especially in matters of salvation.

    Still, Swaimj, all those years of wondering without having Christ as the object of faith and then of a sudden from inside the well of the deceptive, prideful and sinful heart one finds the 'strength' to develop a faith that has the Savior as it's object.

    "convoluted"? That's a new one, I know the word, just new to the argument as to being thrown at me, thank God you don't have to accuse me of 'diluted' theology.

    God Bless.
    Bro. Dallas
     
    #15 Frogman, Apr 7, 2003
  16. swaimj

    swaimj <img src=/swaimj.gif>

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    I have enjoyeed the discussion & appreciate the good spirit in which it has been conducted. Allow me to again point out what I perceive to be the error in your position
    The faith does not spring out of nothing. Her faith is a result of hearing about Jesus. Hearing about Jesus is the only thing required for a person to believe. Hearing the gospel is accompanied by the enabling work of the Spirit. Nothing extra is needed. It is the hearing of the gospel which enables one to believe. Once again "Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God." In the words of Chris Berman, "That's my story and I'm stickin' to it! [​IMG]
     
    #16 swaimj, Apr 8, 2003
  17. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    That suits me, but don't leave out Romans 10.14

    How shall they call upon him in whom they have not believed?...

    Bro. Dallas
     
    #17 Frogman, Apr 8, 2003
  18. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Regarding Luke 8

    I am sticking with that.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #18 BobRyan, Apr 10, 2003
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