Lutheran changes his mind:

I can't read the small type, so I am virtually backing off from this discussion.

I will say this, however, I read my Bible and assimulate information from it, historically, culturally and theologically. As I read and assimilate this information, I believe God, the Holy Spirit, teaches me certain truths. He teaches as much as I need to know at the moment. Sometimes it takes years to have a given passage explode in my understanding and it becomes a new truth. I think this is how the study of scripture works.

How many times has this happened in the secular realm? A teacher tries every avenue to explain something. We continue in a daze. Then, at 2:AM one morning we awake, sit up in bed and say, "Now I get it! Yes, that is quite clear. Why was I so stupid? I find the same thing happening all the time with very familiar passages of scripture.

Cheers,

Jim

 

I would disagree with that somewhat. We don't know the details of how one is drawn to Christ (because there are various ways), but once a person receives by faith God's grace (which is based on the hearing of the Word) the Holy Spirit breathes life into the dead man's spirit. He becomes spiritually alive and secure for all eternity.

We are shown this process in Genesis 1:2. That's God's method of restoration. The Holy Spirit moves, God speaks (based on the finish work of Jesus) and Light comes into existence.

 

Amen and amen!

 

Without the regenerating power of God, no man would ever accept Christ. With it, no man would ever refuse Christ. They are not resting in their own actions, but their actions are a result of what God did for them. They are, therefore, in no way resting in their own work, but the work of God.

Joseph Botwinick

 

It seems to me that Jesus was not amazed by this idea:

Luke 24:45-49

Joseph Botwinick

 

Joseph you are talking about apples and oranges. Everything has been revealed and all the mysteries have been explained that were contained. There isn't anything in God's Scriptures that is not understandable.

Because if that is true then the Scripture is a lie, because it says the Holy Spirit is capable of leading us into ALL truth, not just partial truth, but ALL truth.

The passage that you are talking about was before the Holy Spirit indwelt saved people.

 

JJ,

You are correct that Scripture is perfectly clear to those who have been saved and are led by the Holy Spirit of God because the message of the cross is the power of God for those who are being saved (1 Corinthians 1). It is also, however, foolishness to those who are perishing because their minds have not been opened to recieve or understand the truth of God's Word by faith.

Joseph Botwinick

 

It seems as though you are saying this passage applies to those who are saved and those you are unsaved, but the passage was written to saved people and is speaking of saved people, not unsaved people.

How can someone who is already dead (spiritually, not physically) be perishing? They are either dead or not. A dead man can not perish, because he is already dead.

Those that are perishing are those that are saved, but are not moving away from the milk of the Word onto the meat of the Word and then on to strong meat.

 

Interesting perspective. Never heard it that way before. I will think about that.

Joseph Botwinick

 

Agreed - acceptance, belief and repentance are "Works" but STILL this is not salavtion by works ANY MORE than John 14:15 "IF you Love Me KEEP My commandments" is kingdom by works, or salvation by works, or heaven by works.

Notice all the "Believing" and "confessing" that happens before salvation?

Hmmm - kinda makes you want to accept the truth of the Arminian POV.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Only if you seperate them from the rest of the bible. The only one who could confess the Lord with heart and mind is a person already indwelt by the Spirit and anybody in that state is already saved.