Major Doctrinal Issue?

Very, very minor issue.

 

Minor...
Do both sides agree that we will be out of here before the trib?

If so, it is a matter of how long the trib will last...

If that is the case, and both sides agree that we will be out of here before it starts... then what does it really matter...

WE will be in Heaven celebrating with Christ...

BTW, the more I study dispensationalism, the more I am moving from a 7 yr to 3 1/2 yr myself... (although I have never heard that the 3 1/2 yr ended on the cross)

I have a problem with the fact that for 1800 yrs the rapture wasn't even a thought... until Darby stole the idea from some Catholics that was trying to get the light off the Pope as the Antichrist... then along came Scofield.. and the rest is history in American Christianity...

Only in American Christianity is this concept widely dispersed...

That to me is a big red flag.

But I don't want to derail this thread...

So, I would say minor....

After all, we will be in Heaven...

 

1 and 2 Thessalonians were written only 200 years ago?

To the op...it is not a major issue at all. It does not compromise immutable truth, hence it's minor, IMO.

 

Read 1 and 2 Thessalonians without the dispy idea of 7 yrs, and you may be surprised....

I was challenged to forget what I was taught and read it without any preconceived notions... and it did get me to thinking...

Show me 7 yrs in Thess...
Show me a rapture with trib following in Thess...

I beleive in a rapture... but the timing can be discussed....

What happens if we are here for the first 3 1/2 yrs ... will Christians be prepared?

Like I said.. I grew up a classic Dispy.. with Darby's teaching, and all the charts to prove it....

I am just questioning it now because of the things I have learned in church history...

Especially since the original idea came from catholics who wanted to dispel the common idea that the Pope was the antichrist in 1800...

Everyone wants theology to be neat and simple..
But it is not...
There are many good people on both sides...

I said all that to say this... I am a pan... It will all pan out.. the way God wants it to...

If the trib last 7 yrs, praise God.. I won't be here
If the trib lasts 3 1/2 yrs Praise God... I won't be here...
And if I was lied to, and beleived wrong, and we have to go through the trib... I will still praise God... I will gladly lay down my life here for his cause... I have eternity to live.

Besides.. .people around the world today are losing their lives because they are a Christian...
What makes us Americans think that we should be exempt by the rapture?

Tribulation is going on now in parts of the muslim world...
If you don't think it is, go there, and tell me what you would call it when a family is slaughtered because they are Christian.

What's the worst that could happen to you? Killed for Christ?
Christians have experienced that since the time of Christ...

And it will continue until he returns...
Whether it is 7 yrs or 3 1/2 yrs matters not...
All that matters is that people are ready to go whether in the rapture, or at death...

 

...I actually have, my last pastor was a mid tribber. The only one that seems to bring together the whole purpose of the GT, Israel and the church is the pre trib position. The GT is not just tribulation like believers are suffering today around the world, it is God's wrath on an unrepentant world, which the church is not. It logically makes no sense for the church to be subject to God's wrath, as that makes Christ's work on the cross incomplete, as the fullness of God's wrath was placed on Him, and since we are "in Him", makes the GT moot for us.

 

"Especially since the original idea came from catholics"

And others say it was some mystic female with dreams, so where is your referencing for your view :thumbs:

 

The eschatology of the church fathers is as differentiated as our today, and there were many other doctrinal items to be worked out.

The Grammatical-Historical method of exegesis was wiped out in the Nestorian controversies, and was not re-discovered until Calvin.

Justification by faith, for example, was undermined in the 100s (by such influential works as the Shepherd of Hermas, and was not fully addressed until the Reformation.

Replacement Theology, the philosophical basis for 1600 years of anti-semitism in Europe, developed during the 1st to the 3rd centuries, and though is has NO SCRIPTURAL BASIS WHATSOEVER, there are still a minority of conservative theologians who hold to it.

Darby and his fellows (Moody, Torrey, Chafer, Scofield, et. al.) beginning in 1830, freed eschatology from the Roman Catholic allegorical method of interpretation and returned Christian theology to a literal grammatical method of exposition.

As for the timing of the Rapture, that is, and will remain, a topic of controversy because it is not obvious.

 

The major issue is that there will be a rapture of the saved. Other rapture-related issues are minor. Some are pretrib rapture, some are post trib rapture, some are midtrib rapture, some are split rapture (don't even ask! it has been a hundred years since I have heard the term used!).

As long as there is agreement that the rapture will occur, there should be no division over the "when" question. Most Bible students can "prove" it their way.

 

The three and one half year theory, is based on a mis-interpretation of the verse below.

Da:9:27: And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
(Matthew Henry’s commentary, states that there were people who at that time interpreted the verse both ways. That is to be Christ, or the antichrist, this was before Margret McDonald came on the scene. In fact it goes way back beyond that, so this discussion has been going on for a long time.)

In the fact his ministry began at the start of the 69th week, and should have continued until the end or the completion of the 70 weeks. His ministry, and crucifixion did in fact! accomplish all of the events stated in the verse.

While it is true the antichrist’ reign is for one week, the time of Jacob’s troubles will not occur until the antichrist declares himself to be God. This is somewhere around the mid-point of the 7 weeks, and will result in the outpouring of Gods wrath. At any rate the Church will not be present. In the letter to the church of Philadelphia Rev #4, God promises they are not appointed to Gods wrath. Also Enoch stated that the Lord would return with his saints to judge the unrighteous, there is only one group of people in the scriptures referred to as saints, the Church. So the fact the Saints return with the Lord to the battle of Armageddon, makes it obvious they are already with the lord. To make Enoch credible, Christ in the Gospel Matthew referred to Enoch, and this very statement.

 

Tiny, or less, issue

 

I happen to know for a fact that the rapture will occur exactly on

 

Major. Where can their notion be substantiated scripturally? It can't.
Besides, the pre-trib rapture (which is substantiated throughout the Old, as well as the New Testaments) is our BLESSED HOPE.
"Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" - Titus 2:13

They are obviously taking Daniel 9 out of context. Daniel 9 in it's rightful context means this: That there will be 483 years (69 weeks) between the commandment to rebuild Jerusalem and the crucifixion of Jesus. And what is important is that the Jewish calendar is based on a 360 day year.

The 70th week commences when the Antichrist signs a peace treaty with Israel.

When someone starts taking scripture out of context to suit their own imagination, it's time to start heading for the door, rather than allowing them to destroy your faith. That's why I'd rather be churchless than listen to fairytales - it's better to please God than Man.

 

Believing in a mid-trib vs pre-trib rapture is hardly faith destroying.

 

Not major.

One's eschatology is not a test of fellowship with me.

I do wish we could find one--just one--scripture passage that speaks specifically about a pre-trib or mid-trib rapture. I'm talking about one that is unequivocal, not subject to any other interpretation. It would be nice not to have to take 400 scripture passages and tie them together to come up with that view.

We have so many passages that are clearly post-tribulational. I wish we could say the same about pre-trib verses, of which I can find none.

I will say that I can remember 30 years ago when eschatology was a test of fellowship with a lot of dispies. That view is based on a literal interpretation of scripture, and if you held any other view of the end times it meant you didn't believe the Bible, and were a liberal at best and a heretic at worst.

Why, non-dispies might not even be saved!

 

"was a test of fellowship with a lot of dispies."

AND among the non-dispensationalists as well it might well be added to give equal derision to all. :thumbs:

 

Minor. Point is, be ready.

 

Here is the answer to all the differing opinions.

Mark 13:33 - Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.