Featured Man is unable to choose spiritual life (salvation) on his own!

I suppose he might tell you the same thing.

 

No, I don't. If you don't know what I believe you should not jump in and post ignorantly.
FYI, I am not a Calvinist.

 

Maybe that is what you believe, but the question is why?
If man, according to you, does not have a sin nature, as Jesus did not have a sin nature, why do you sin? You, like Jesus, should be able to make it through this life without sinning. You should be able to do it with ease. But the reason you cannot is because you have a sin nature; from birth "you are accustomed to sin," as Jeremiah teaches in Jeremiah 13:23.

Then answer my questions.
Why do you have to teach a child to tell the truth when they lie naturally?
Why would a four year old brutally bite a two year old if they are born without a sin nature?
Why are they born naturally selfish? (MINE!!)

That is a red herring and you know it.

Yes, they deserve it like you do. We all deserve it. There is not one of us who don't. What did an infant do to "deserve" being in the presence of God?

Another red herring; another topic.

Even though this is another topic, it is a simple belief in the mercy of God.

And you are wrong. It is a misapplication of Scripture.

You are reading into Scripture something that is not there. Nowhere in that parable is any baby mentioned.

No he didn't. You just think he did. You read into Scripture what you want to read. It is eisigesis.

But it is apparent you don't know Jesus' doctrine.

Where does he speak about that? I don't know what you are talking about.

He does, and so what is your point? You were a child of hell too until you repented and came to Christ. Every person is. They are born that way; born into Satan's family. Thus the necessity of the "new birth," being born into God's family. At birth you are born into the wrong family. Your beliefs make null and void the necessity of the new birth.

Wrong.

It is a figure of speech. He is referring to his own "children," that is his disciples.

A sheep is a sheep and a son is a son. Neither one was "lost" spiritually as in unsaved. They had gone astray. Jesus said "my sheep hear my voice and they follow me. I give unto them eternal life and they shall never perish." He wasn't lost (unsaved).

An elder son is not a child. Your interpretation is weird.

Take a class in hermeneutics.

 

No, because you are a Baptist.

 

I am not a person of extremes. I try to avoid that, theologically and personally.

 

Really, even though I totally reject Augustinianism and everything associated with it?

 

I know what you believe. I have done a lot of reading here. So, your charge is incorrect.

 

That is an odd answer to give. If you know what I believe why did you ask what I believe just a couple of days ago.
Secondly, if you know what I believe why can't you understand what I believe on the other thread? You continue to make false allegations about what I believe. No, you certainly don't know what I believe.

 

Like I said, I've done a lot of reading. I do know what you believe, and what you are.

 

So you think that Christians who believe in free will are Muslims??

Let me ask Slim and Clem what they think of your view...



That's the dumbest thing we've ever heard, that boy's all mixed up!

 

And he doesn't even know what Muslims believe. Islam is a fatalistic religion.

 

Why did Adam and Eve sin?? They did not have a sin nature did they? But they sinned the first time they were tempted didn't they? Are we often tempted in this world? Seems like a pretty OBVIOUS answer to me.

Children are born self centered for survival. A child will naturally seek to eat and drink, to be warm and comfortable. This is not sinful, it is self preservation.

As for lying, by the time a child can speak they have been exposed to much lying from their parents, siblings, TV, etc... Children naturally imitate those around them.

It is not. Not one person here (except for one or two hyper-Calvinists) believes little babies deserve to go to hell. The very thought is repulsive to almost everyone. Why? Because deep down almost everyone knows babies are innocent of sin. They do not deserve to be punished. And so even folks who CLAIM they believe babies are sinners invent ways for babies to be saved, they will say God shows them some special grace and saves them without faith in Christ. That goes against all scripture.

I on the other hand do not believe babies and little children are guilty of sin, and I have scripture like Romans 9:11 to support my view.

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )

Jacob and Esau had not sinned in their mother's womb, if they would have died at this point, should they go to hell? NO.

Do many babies die in the womb or shortly after being born? MILLIONS. This is why I believe the 99 just persons who never went astray are babies.

Sick. Babies have not sinned, therefore they deserve no punishment.

Wrong.

You believe babies are saved without faith in Jesus. That is a HUGE problem. I on the other hand believe children have not sinned and have scripture to support this view. You have absolutely ZERO scripture to support your view.

According to whom?

In Matthew 18 Jesus tells the same exact parable and uses the words LITTLE ONES.

Mat 18:12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?
13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.
14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

My view is absolutely scriptural.

Perhaps it is that you cannot understand parables.

This is the whole point, it is Jesus that spoke of 99 just persons who never went astray and need no repentance, it was Jesus who told of the elder son who never transgressed his father's commandment at any time. If Original Sin is true, Jesus must have forgot about it, because there could be no such persons.

Of course, if little children are not born sinners, such persons do exist, many millions of them.

Sinless people. Jesus spoke of 99 just persons who have never gone astray and need no repentance. Go read.

That is your assumption, I believe a person becomes a child of the devil when they willingly and knowingly choose to join themselves to sin. I believe this is clearly shown in the parable of the prodigal Son.

Luk 15:15 And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.

The prodigal rejected his father who represents God and joined himself to a citizen of the far country he went into. I believe this represents Satan. This is when the prodigal son spiritually died.

You are the one who is wrong, it directly states he is speaking of children.

Mat 18:2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

This is your problem, you need to put down men's books and actually read your Bible.

Jesus knows "his sheep" by foreknowledge. Jesus knows who will come to him. Nevertheless, they go out in sin and become lost, just as the one sheep went out and became lost in Luke 15.

Jesus also showed the father had TWO sons. The prodigal was not lost at first. But when he went out in sin and repented, his father said he had been LOST and DEAD (never said of believers), but now he was alive AGAIN. If we are born lost, no man could ever be said to be alive AGAIN.

Luk 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

Believers are never said to be DEAD and LOST.

He had been there many years because he died as an infant. He had ALWAYS been with his father.

Luk 15:31 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.

I don't expect you to see and understand this.

 

Oh come now you think not being honest is only taught? Put little kids with one toy in the room...that ought to clear things up for you. Before long WWF will break out!

 

How do children learn to speak? By LISTENING to those around them. If a child is born into an English speaking household, does he magically speak Spanish?

A child doesn't really start to put multiple words together until he is at least 2 years old. By that time he has heard lying MANY times from everyone around him.

1 Pet 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

Our "vain conversation" is speaking of our behavior or lifestyle. The scriptures say it was received by tradition from our fathers. The scriptures themselves teach we receive our sinful behavior from our parents. It doesn't say we inherit sin, we learn it by "tradition".

 

He is also unaware that it is Calvinism that is frequently compared to Islam, not Arminianism.

http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2012/05/is-calvinism-islamic.html

http://www.freewill-predestination.com/islam.html

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/s...gs-some-guy-noticed-about-Calvinism-and-Islam

http://islamdom.blogspot.com/2008/05/calvinism-and-islam.html

I could list dozens of more articles relating Calvinism and Islam.

Evangelist-7 could not have been more wrong if he tried.

 

Never mind Adam and Eve. The question is about you. If you don't have a sin nature, why do you sin? You have no excuse! And since your belief extends to all mankind surely (even including Adam and Eve), out all these billions and billions that have lived throughout all these centuries, someone should have made it through life without sin, IF they don't have a sin nature. But it has never happened has it? NEVER! Why? Man has a sin nature, and therefore sins.

That is pure evolutionary thought.
If they are born self-centered they are born sinners, for selfishness does not belong to God it belongs to Satan. Your theory has just been debunked.

And if he doesn't have a sinful nature he should seek the comfort and well-being of others as well as himself. But he doesn't.
A four year old bites a two year old.
They fight each other.
A two year old pulls the bottle of milk out of the one year old's mouth.
The one year old throw's a temper tantrum.
The two year old lies.
They are all sinners.

Yeah, right! What did they do before 1920 when the first TV was invented?
What does the firstborn do who doesn't have children?
If the parents are Godly they don't misbehave in front of their children.
You are making excuses. They lie as soon as, or soon after they are born. They do so because they have a sin nature. They don't need to blame it on their environment, as you and Humanism teach.

 

What do you mean, never mind Adam and Eve? Original Sin teaches you are born a sinner because of Adam!

Adam and Eve PROVE that a sin nature is not necessary to sin. All that is necessary to sin is free will. Adam and Eve had it easy, they lived in a perfect world without needs. They had one single law to obey. And they sinned the very first time they were tempted.

We, on the other hand, live in an utterly corrupt world with many thousands of constant temptations. We have many more laws to keep. Is it any wonder that we fail and sin at an early age?

Nonsense, even Jesus said we have needs.

Mat 6:31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek: ) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.

God equips all men with instincts. A child will automatically suck at it's mother's breast. This is for self preservation. It is not sinful for a baby to cry when it is hungry, or cold, or teething, or having a wet diaper. Folks that claim this is sin are totally messed up in the head.

Your view of mankind has been so distorted by the teachings of Calvinism. You very well speak evil of men who are made after the similitude of God.

Jam 3: 9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.

Yes, children fight, they can be selfish, but they are not old enough to understand their behavior yet, and therefore not guilty of sin. Jesus placed a small child among his disciples and said they must be converted and become as a little child to enter heaven.

Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

You are truly unaware of how distorted your thinking has become because of false teaching. Do you really think Jesus is telling his disciples to become evil sinners to enter heaven? Absurd.

What kind of argument is this? TV is certainly a poor influence on children (and adults), but there was plenty of sinful behavior in the world before TV.

Children do not speak the day they are born, it takes about 2 years before children begin to put multiple words together. They learn to speak from listening to those around them, that is why they speak the same language as their parents (do I really need to explain this to you??). If your parents speak English, then so do you. By the time a child starts to speak sentences they have heard lies probably hundreds of times.

I already showed 1 Peter 1:18;

1 Pet 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

We receive our vain conversation or behavior by TRADITION FROM OUR FATHERS. We do not inherit a sin nature, we learn it from those around us.

This is what the scriptures teach, but you will ignore it.

 

Original sin teaches all are born with a curse. Even before a child can choose to sin, the child is cursed due to the Original Sin of Adam. Are all children saved? The scriptures say nothing at all specifically. This is a subject of mauch debate and little "matter of fact".

Yes and no. Free will is needed, but that is not all. A commandment had to be given and a third party had to deceive and tempt. Take away the commandment and take away the Deceiver, and choice is gone, and God has a creation of humans who have no knowledge of good and evil, and thus never learn what love is.