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Mark Driscoll admits to "Free Will"

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Revmitchell, Mar 27, 2009.

  1. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member

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  2. Rhetorician

    Rhetorician Active Member

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    Rev. Mitchell Response

    Hello Dear Brother,

    I am not sure you and I have talked before?

    It is my priviledge to teach "Speech" on the college level and have for over a decade. I am always telling my students that "words have meaning" and "context dictates that meaning."

    When it comes to "free will," most Reform people would believe in "free will" if you let us define the terms.

    1. We are "free" to choose on the horizontal level. That is we can choose whom to marry, what to become when we grow up, where to live, etc.

    2. We do NOT mean by "free" that the person is "free" to choose God at his or her will. "We love him because (purpose clause), He first loved (in response to His first loving) us."

    3. We believe that the so-called "free will" has been tainted and tinted even "died" in the Fall of Adam. Therefore, "dead men" (See Eph 2) cannot choose to come to God. They are dead. We call this deadness the doctrine of depravity. Some call this "total inability." If it is true that we are "dead in trespasses and sins" then we have no moral ability or compunction to come to God.

    These are just a few responses, and I am sure on this section of the BB will cause a stir. I am not doing this for that purpose but to answer on some level your honest question.

    sdg!:smilewinkgrin:

    rd
     
  3. JustChristian

    JustChristian New Member

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    Just curious. Where do you find support of this kind of bifurcated free will in the Bible?
     
  4. annsni

    annsni Administrator
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    From my understanding, we have free will within our nature. We certainly can choose God anytime - but in our sinful nature, we will not do that. It is not until we are called - and our hearts are changed that we can then fully turn to God.
     
  5. swaimj

    swaimj <img src=/swaimj.gif>

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    Driscoll, as I recall what he said on the program, was referring to free will prior to the fall. It is quite common, in my experience and as I understand the reformed argument, to say that, before the fall, man and angels had free will. This free will was unconstrained by a sinful nature. I would describe this as libertarian free will. I'm not sure that reformed people would use that term to describe it and I am certain that they do not hold to libertarian free will for individuals today. I don't think reformed people see free will as being as free today nor as free in the same sense as it was prior to the fall.

    The problem with their view, for me, is how to reconcile the free will they hold to prior to the fall with the determinism that they hold, be it hard determinism or soft. However, that is probably off topic for this thread.
     
  6. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member

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    Driscoll made it clear that men have free will or there is no love. The ability to choose or not to choose.
     
  7. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member

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    No we have not. I do not need your condescending resume or words have meaning speech. I have heard all the Reformed arguments. Until Driscoll spoke of free will and its relation to love and salvation.
     
  8. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member

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    His statement of free will doesn’t surprise me. When the rubber meets the road all “reformed”… or by your exclusive definition “Calvinist Reformed” …will incorporate some form of free will through a stab at compatiblism, or otherwise will reach fatalism in their Calvinistic “reformed” systematic theology.
     
  9. Aaron

    Aaron Member

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    This is news? When a man with his lips honors God's sovereignty, but in his works denies it, then in his heart he does not believe in the sovereignty of God.

    In anything of Driscoll that I have heard and read, he has sought the aprobation of men.
     
  10. annsni

    annsni Administrator
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    Can you show me where?
     
  11. webdog

    webdog Active Member

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    Don't hold your breathe...
     
  12. Rhetorician

    Rhetorician Active Member

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    Rev. Mitchell Response

    Rev. Mitchell,

    I am sorry that your perception and/or interpretation of what I said was taken as "condescending." It was not meant so. Then again, I am not responsible for anyone's perceptions, opinions, or interpretations of what I say, am I?

    I can see that I have stumbled into an unfriendly section of the BB.

    Y'all have fun now!:smilewinkgrin:

    sdg!

    rd
     
  13. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member

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    Rhet wasn't being condescending in the least. You are totally out of line. Are you in the very least familiar with his posts? He is one of the most gracious members here. You are too ready for a fight -- over nothing. Step back.
     
  14. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member

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    I do not need to step back any more than I need his speech or his resume. Neither were relevant to the thread. It was extra info not pertinent. And I certainly do not need "context" explained to me.
     
  15. zrs6v4

    zrs6v4 Member

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    Rev,

    Im sure you know the reformed view very well, but lets maybe walk through the issue so I can understand where you are coming from. let me make some short statements.

    God has a free will and so does man.
    God's is sovereign and good
    man's is not sovereign and rebellious in nature
    for man to choose God he must be drawn in line with God's will
    when God's will collides with man's, God's is always going to prevail.

    A father had to go to run a few errands. his three year old son wanted to play and stay home. Both wills collided, and the father grabbed the son and took him anyway.
     
  16. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    I didn't realize Driscoll is reformed. This is news to me.
     
  17. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member

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    As far as knowing the reformed view it is an impossibility.They remain elusive. usually a result of not liking the characterizations of others perceptions of their view. But to be sure reformed characterizations are the reliable ones.:rolleyes:

    Anyway the purpose of this thread was not to debate about the reformed view but to understand what Mark said in light of his reformed theology. it almost sounded like he left it.
     
  18. Jim1999

    Jim1999 <img src =/Jim1999.jpg>

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    We, reformed theologians, have always taught free will in man. it comes under the heading, God's Permissive Will, under the major heading of Absolute Sovereignty. I have never been elusive about calvinism. I just find it futile of those who will not know, so why trouble?

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  19. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    Calvinists/Reformed believers believe in free will, but it comes down to how it is understood.
     
  20. JustChristian

    JustChristian New Member

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    Let me see if I understand this concept. Isn't Permissive Will God's Permissive Will as you have stated? In other words, God still controls the actions of men even though these might involve evil or sin. The explanation is that God isn't causing evil He is allowing it to happen for His glorification.

    I don't see how this can be construed as man's free will at all. Man still doesn't have the ability to act against God or even to act for God as the case might be.
     
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