Martin: Paul's 9/11 explanation deserves to be debated

Any discussion of U.S. Mideast foreign policy is less than useless if it does not include a frank discussion of our support for Israel.

Non of the parties involved can be taken seriously until they do. The rest is just smoke and mirrors.

 

A frank discussion about support for Israel can not be had in the political arena without instantly being turned into an ex-candidate. The best thing a candidate can do is say "I love Israel", "they never do anything wrong", "the attack on the USS Liberty was an accident", "Killing the Lebanese is cool"...etc., etc.

 

The Lebonese would fair much better if they would leave Israel alone.

 

Rufus_1611, I sincerely meant not to be insulting in any manner if that is what you perceived! I was rushed with that reply, as my wife was working on the computer, but I can see how some of my post seem.

I always try to maintain a very Christian and conscientious tone; because I realize people, whom may be lost but receptive, will come across our posts. I do fail at times in this regards but it is not from a lack of trying. In addition, you and a few others raise many other questions, all legitimate, but not specifically in regards to the O.P. Which is what I have tried to stick to from lack of time in pondering such as 1)which foreign policies are correct, 2) which wars are legitimate, 3) is there alternative reasons involved with the above other than stated, etc.

Again, I sincerely apologize and have appreciated your posts and thoughts.

This is correct. However, the American People also comprise our Government. America is a reflection of the American people, it may not be to the degree it once was, but this is true. The Muslim terrorists and sympathizers, whom we have been addressing, do not distinguish in any manner! They in fact specifically note this! This is one of my major points and why Ron Paul is severely lacking in understanding the enemy and what drives them. After all, they sought out and killed innocent men and women on 9/11. This as they continue to do on a daily basis, which would include other Muslims. The recent poll, showing 25% American Muslim men, support suicide bombings should speak volumes. It has virtually everything to do with their religion and American foreign policy is little more than a rally source for them. It would not matter to them if you were John Smith school teacher, or Leutinant John Smith, or even Senator John Smith. Their goal is to convert or kill you.

I don't think anyone is silencing him? He is free to think/say what he wishes and we are to decide whether his perceptions are good or bad. I have already addressed the 9/11 Commission report and again, nowhere does it say our foreign policies are the greatest problem in causing attacks and as such, it must be drastically changed. Nor does it say or even suggest, as one would conclude from R. Paul's stance, we should leave some or all Muslim nations. My previous posts suffice without re-addressing.

So a man states America is "bomb happy" and that Afghanistan offers "little benefit". A) It would appear this man seems to have an axe to grind, B) he couldn't be more wrong about the vital role and example Afghanistan plays! Could you provide the page number for this comment, that I may be able to put it into context?

Well if it were up to me as I feel, we would be in no Middle Eastern Muslim nation! However, that would simply prove devastating for millions of men, women, and children who are looking upon us to provide for them protection and a better way of life. Do we turn our back on them and leave it to murdering thugs? Which in turn, would create additional animosity among those Muslims, who are moderate in nature and want a different life. Do we tell the women in Iraq, whom have come to know new freedoms and respect, that they will have to go back to a completely repressive state? Do we forget the children, whom our military men and women have befriended, in giving them over to such as bin Ladin. Who will teach them how to cut a man's head off in preparing them for war against us. I don't think we can police the world either, but we can try and help make positive changes.

I agree. Our policies do have an impact and need to be debated, as surely they are. However, please consider that Washington and Jefferson, did not have to contemplate jet liners being used as missiles to crash into skyscrapers, killing thousands at once. Nor did they have to confront radical people capable of using nuclear or biological weapons that could kill millions. Otherwise, I am positive, being the great leaders they were, they would have considered all.

I want to correct something as it was soon after 9/11 I saw this interview. The agent said he was advised by Afghans he was working with, not to be seen by bin Ladin who was a Saudi, as he hated Americans.




I believe we should support Israel, as we have an undeniable and great commonality with them! There is also no denying their allegiance, where with other's it is simply a matter of knowing who hates us least. Nor are they out to conquar, kill, or convert the world as some Muslims are.




I may not be able to reply as we are going on vacation. Have a great holiday everyone.
take care:jesus:

 

No apology necessary. I was sincere in my thanks and appreciation, we may not agree but we can reason together.

I do not believe the American gov't to be a reflection of its people. The will of the people is being ignored on a multitude of issues including immigration, abortion, homosexual marriage and yes even on war.

The recent poll demonstrating that 1/3 of U.S. Army personnel favor torture should speak volumes as well. An environment of hatred continues to be heated and is boiling over. It seems to me we should modify the course rather than staying the course.

The GOPAC chairman and the Michigan GOP leader were trying to get Ron Paul out of the debates because of Paul's comments. They didn't like the idea that such a thing could be said.

Whatever the motive, the Commission found it fit for printing in their report, making this a valid topic of discussion and making Rudy sound very incompetent to be Mr. 911 Security Guy and having never read the Commission Report (Quote can be found on page 137 of the report).

We need to get our own house in order rather than worrying about fixing others. The Middle East is a Middle Eastern issue. Let them sort it out in whatever way they feel led.

Washington and Jefferson did not have to contemplate such things. However, we have a gov't that supposedly did. We spend tens of millions of dollars on a system called NORAD. How did that system do on 9/11? Perhaps we could just fix NORAD, and fix our immigration issue, rather than give up freedoms at home and bombing and occupying foreign nations that have not attacked us?

I don't have less or more commonality with the nation state of Israel than any other antichrist state. They are opposed to Jesus Christ, I am for Him.

Have a blessed vacation.

 

I don't disagree with you, but honestly, it is the root of our Mideast problems and nothing else really matters.

 

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Another Paul who understands blowback?

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Thanks for your compliments Rufus_1611!

Rufus, with due respect this again is to the degree of conspiracy theorists. Yes, the American people's voices are not being heard on a number of issues but this is not the case with every Representative on every issue. The later would give credence to your statement but that is far from the truth.




You are highly correct with the immigration debate though. It is the major issue where the majority will of the people is being ignored. This is the greatest reason I feel the President, and Congress(partially but not singularly), are receiving such low opinions from Americans.

Unfortunately polls consistently show the majority of Americans, which includes professing Christians, support a womens right in regards to abortion. The President and Congress did pass legislation banning late term abortion though, which is a great step in the right direction. It is the first major blow to Roe v. Wade/abortion rights activists in decades or since that decision.

Yes, homosexual marriage is another major issue, however the President and many Republicans did attempt to introduce legislation recognizing marriage as between a man and woman. Though this effort failed it is not correct to say they were not representing the People's will. As it stands now, we the people are settling that issue State by State, as allowed by our Federal and State Constitutions.


There is some truth in your statement but not to the degree of conspiracy. In addition, we the people are also greatly to blame for the introduction and allowance of many immoral legislations. As many Christians and Churches have taken/took the stance we should not get involved with politics. That stance simply lead to rulings/legislation as roe v. wade, removal of Ten Commandments, banning of voluntary school prayer etc. It will also lead to other immoral issues as gay marriage unless we continue to vote and speak out about it.

War is hell and nobody denies that. However, we do not elect officials and then dictate foreign policy or national security to them, through polls based on emotion! We expect they have all the vital information and will make the best decisions for us and America.

There is no nation which could survive or effectively operate if policies were based strictly upon emotion polling! If that were the case we would have no taxes and thus many needed programs made available through such etc. Nobody wants our men and women to be in war but if you ask them if they believe in their mission and the desired results, the greatest majority would say yes.

Yes, we can debate whether we should be involved with nation building; but there is little debate as whether we should go after these Muslim terrorists in other nations. History shows we were reluctant and most Americans did not want to enter WWII. However, had we listened to FDR and others' earlier on, contrary to popular opinions by the way, Hitler would not have become as powerful as he did and Pearl Harbor might not have occurred in the first place. As it stands, it took Pearl Harbor to make us realize an isolationist mentality would not protect us from people hell bent on destroying and conquering others'.

In addition and as noted, we the United States, supported and helped the Afghan people defend themselves against Russia. However, that major fact did not stop anti-American groups from arising and ruling through brute force; nor did it encourage and promote good sentiments toward America. No, our policies good or bad, aggressive or passive, does not matter to such as bin Ladin and those he recruits. As 9/11 was conceived and carried out by these thugs from Afghanistan with impunity.

Well, I think that more so represents a knee jerk reaction versus a large movement to silence him. As far as I know he will still be allowed to participate in other GOP debates? However, the GOP does have the right to ostracize him if his views are radically contrary to the GOP base. He could choose to run as an Independent if he likes.

I could not find the quote on page 137 online or in my copy. Again however, the Report does not state our foreign policy is the "greatest" reason for attacks against us as R. Paul did. It in fact, emphatically states we need to have an aggressive foreign policy in going after terrorist and in working with Muslim nations in doing so, and in getting the American message out agaist the prapaganda as promoted by al jazeera etc. It clearly outlines what drives bin Ladin and others', contrary to blaming America, and that our policies are only part of a recruiting tool used by bin Ladin. Otherwise, where does it recommend we need to drastically change our policies, remove ourselves from other nations, and/or ignore rising threats in other nations????? Because if his, America is greatly to blame, stance were true then such would be part of the Commission Report as he tried using the Report to justify his remarks and stance. It however draws no such conclusions and states emphatically in regards to our foreing policy, whether you or R. Paul agrees or not; "American foreign policy is part of the message.....That does not mean U.S. choices have been wrong.."p. 371-377.

I would agree we need to get our own country back into order; however 9/11 and other attacks have shown it it not "just" a Middle Eastern problem! It is simply inevitable, no matter our foreign policy, that someone will get a nuclear device and attempt to detonate it in America. Again, we could hide our head in the sand and send daises to our enemies and it won't matter. America is hated because of our culture, Christianity, and prosperity and no passive foreign policy will ever change or begin to change that mentality!

Amen on being for Christ, but I would not say Israel is against Christ per say. I would on the other hand say Muslim nations are indeed against Christ or Christian nations, as they have had a history, propensity, and in so stating such, while attacking us. This has been the case from their inception! The terrorists have a stated goal of converting or killing us or anyone who is not their brand of Muslim. Israel has no stated goals. You don't have to like Israel but I would caution in knowing one's enemies from allies.




I will finish with this. America may not be to the degree of greatness she once was; it is still the greatest nation conceived by man and blessed by God. We do have the power to again make her more reminiscent as the Founders envisioned and as Reagan showed could happen. We have done more to help others around the World than any Nation ever with freedoms few have ever experienced.




take care and God Bless America.
God Bless our Men and Women in uniform.



:jesus:

 

Excellent posts, Ralph III and ditto from me! I like much of what Ron Paul says regarding other matters but on the war in Iraq, 9/11, and terrorism he seems way off base. His views on these issues are so important to me that I can not support him for President regardless how much I do like the rest.

 

O.P. (opening post):
//Even the Bible says that the children will pay for the sins of their fathers.//

This statement, while true, is somewhat deceptive:
more often the Bible says the children will NOT pay for the sins
of their fathers. One example is in the 5th book in the Bible:

Deu 24:16 (KJV1611 Edition):
The fathers shall not bee put to death for the children,
neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers:
euery man shall be put to death for his owne sinne.

 

All of us are guilty of sin and deserving of death.

 

Yeah, I wish he'd get his story straight about 911 and terrorism too. Terrorism and 911 has been very very good to "the state". Qui bono? The state and a few political crime families that operate within it's "authority".

 

Terrorism and 9/11 have been very bad to the people of our nation - neither has the state profited from it - and would have been and still may be worse if we don't continue the fight for as long and as much as it takes to attain an abolute complete victory.