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Mary the mother of God?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Bro. Ruben, Nov 27, 2005.

  1. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    What if we just stay on the line of expression used in the Bible, Mother of Lord? Is it insufficient? In my neighbor, they completed a very nice looking Cathedral of RCC, with the title of "Church of Mother of God"
    Throughout the Bible, people are so much eager to deviate from the truth and pagan goddess worship was all the time an important trends as we see in Jeremiah 44. I lived near Niagara Falls, Canada, and there is a high school on the opposite side, Niagara Falls USA, named "The Queen of Heaven High School"of course it is RC high school.
    In Revelation, is Mary exalted as Mother of God? even her name is not mentioned at all. Why is the Bible so rude to Mother of God?
     
  2. natters

    natters New Member

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    I know some of you don't like the term "Mother of God", but don't carry it too far. Scripture calls Mary his "mother" in Matt 1:18, 2:11, 2:13-14, 2:20-21, Matt 12:46, Mark 3:31, Luke 2:34, 2:43, 2:48, 2:51, Luke 8:19, John 2:1,3,5,12, 19:25-26, and Acts 1:14.
     
  3. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    I know some of you don't like the term "Mother of God", but don't carry it too far. Scripture calls Mary his "mother" in Matt 1:18, 2:11, 2:13-14, 2:20-21, Matt 12:46, Mark 3:31, Luke 2:34, 2:43, 2:48, 2:51, Luke 8:19, John 2:1,3,5,12, 19:25-26, and Acts 1:14. </font>[/QUOTE]Yes, those outside the family did. Jesus never called Mary His mother.
     
  4. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    In my childhood I thought Jesus had no father but mother. Now I believe Jesus has Father only but no mother.

    The other day I met an old Christian Doctor who has thought about the birth of Jesus with a view to enfleshing into human form. He firmly believes that Ovum of Mary was not used, and could not be used for the fertilization of Jesus.
    Jesus existed before Mary and he had thoughts and memory before the birth as we can see Jn 8:56-58. Discussion on this was done at the otherthread :

    http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3475.html

    The reason why we should not call Mary as Mother of God is because we will be trapped into the pagan goddess worship if we do so. I believe that is why Bible writers never mentioned her as Mother of God.
    Mary is sleeping, Prayer to Mother of God will not be heard.

    Mary was a pot made and used by its Creator - Jesus and she made several mistakes in the Bible, even though RC claims the Immaculate Conception.
     
  5. Ransom

    Ransom Active Member

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    Bunyon said:

    Yes, those outside the family did. Jesus never called Mary His mother.

    Were Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, who were writing under inspiration, wrong?

    When you start denying what Scripture explicitly affirms, can we start calling you "heretic" yet? There are only six basic Christological heresies: denying the genuineness or completeness of Jesus' humanity, denying the genuineness or completeness of Jesus' divinity, confusing his two natures, and dividing his two natures. Jesus was a true man because he was born of a human mother and therefore descended from Adam.

    No human mother, no human Jesus; no descent from Adam, no suitable substitute for our sins. That is the bottom line.
     
  6. Ransom

    Ransom Active Member

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    webdog said:

    Heb 7:3 He is without father or mother or genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but resembling the Son of God he continues a priest forever.

    To argue a point of Christology by appealing to one thing that is said of a type of Christ is incredibly weak, hermeneutically.

    The point of Heb. 7:3 is to explain why Jesus is a better High Priest than Aaron. It is not to say something about his human or divine nature.
     
  7. natters

    natters New Member

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    Yes, those outside the family did. Jesus never called Mary His mother. </font>[/QUOTE]None of the verses I provided were simply quotes of other people recorded in scripture, but all are from the main, inspired narrative of scripture. In other word's, the Holy Spirit himself says Mary is Jesus' mother. To say Jesus has no mother is to say all those verses are in error.
     
  8. nate

    nate New Member

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    Christ was born of the Womans seed. Genesis 3:15. I believe that verse completely takes apart opinions that Mary was not the biological Mother of Christ.
     
  9. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    Dear nate:

    Hebrew word Zerah (Seed) of Genesis 3:15 has the meaning of Seed, Child, Offspring, Descendant and is widely used for descendants as we see in Gen 22:17. It doesn't specify that the child should be biological offspring as we read Romans 4:16 (Abraham is the father of us all). There are many verses supporting this.

    1)If any woman surrogate-mothered a child, can the child not be her seed? I believe the child can be called her offspring and seed, and her descendant. If we limit the seed to biological, then the biblical promise has not been achieved.

    2) If anyone claims that Mary is the biological mother of Jesus, then the person claims that the Word became a sperm and the sperm was fertilized into the ovum of Mary. Thus, Nate, do you believe that Word became a Sperm and it was fertilized into the ovum of Mary?

    3) Word became flesh (Jn 1:14). Flesh means a complete cell having 46 chromosoms,while Sperm and Ovum have 23 each.

    4)Can you interpret about Mt 1:20
    &lt;The one in her is born out of Holy Spirit&gt;

    He was born already without relying on any human body before he was born out of Mary.

    5) I wonder any one here understand about the ministry of Pre-incarnate Jesus before his birth out of Mary, during the OT period. I have vast illustration about it and would like to mention just a few:
    a) Gen 31:13 : The angel says he is God of Beth-El,
    b) Gen 48:16 : The angel who redeemed me from all evil : Can any angel redeem any person? can he bleed ? ( Here again the Angel is Malack- not Elohim)

    c) Ex 23:20-23 : we see a powerful angel

    d) Judges 13: Manoah saw the Angel and asked his name and he said " Why askst thou thus after my name, seeing it is WONDERFUL (peleh as in Isaiah 9:6)
    Did David see Lord? Did Isaiah see the Arm of Jehova?
    There are so many illustrations where Jesus worked. He didn't sleep after He created the world. So, Jesus mentioned that Abraham was delighted to see him (Jn 8:56-58) Moses esteemed the reproach of christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt.
    So Proverb 30:4 asks the name of Son of God.
    Such person has disappeared and then become a sperm and formed a new human embryo with Mary'sovum, and had a new brain inherited from Mary? I don't think so, because Jesus remembered all things that he did before his birth as we can see from his prayer in Jn 17:5 He remembers even the time before the world began.

    I hope this give a good understanding
     
  10. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    What if we understand that Jesus became enfleshed with the Second dust as Adam was enfleshed with the dust, which can be thought after 1Cor 15:45-47, but still having the blood and flesh ?
     
  11. Bunyon

    Bunyon New Member

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    Lets not call anyone a heretic. I haven't seen any on this conversation. We all believe Christ was God and we should not let verbal struggles over abstract mysteries to be the basis for calling anyone a hereitc.

    "When you start denying what Scripture explicitly affirms, can we start calling you "heretic" yet? There are only six basic Christological heresies: denying the genuineness or completeness of Jesus' humanity, denying the genuineness or completeness of Jesus' divinity, confusing his two natures, and dividing his two natures."-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Yet we have to reconcile the scriptures because they cannot contradict. I think the Bible does what we do, as a practical matter. It recognizes Mary as the mother of Jesus who birthed him. But it reconizes in the larger sence that Christ has no mother, ultimately speaking. In spite of what a clever sylogism can say with well defined definitions of common words.
     
  12. Bunyon

    Bunyon New Member

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    "Bunyon said:

    Yes, those outside the family did. Jesus never called Mary His mother."


    Ransom, BTW, I did not say that. You are quoting someone else.
     
  13. Ransom

    Ransom Active Member

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    Oops. You're right. Still, the point stands.
     
  14. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    Questions to those who want to call Mary as Mother of God:

    1) What do you think Mary is doing now?
    and
    2) Where do you think Mary is now ?
    3) How do you think she feels if you call her Mother of God?
    4) What do you think God is calling her and How do you think Jesus is calling her?
     
  15. natters

    natters New Member

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    1) dunno
    2) heaven
    3) dunno
    4) dunno

    Question for you - why do you believe Jesus has no mother, if scripture calls Mary his "mother"?
     
  16. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    I will comment after the other people who calls Mary Mother of God answer.
     
  17. Gold Dragon

    Gold Dragon Well-Known Member

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    1) no clue
    2) heaven
    3) no clue
    4) no clue
     
  18. bapmom

    bapmom New Member

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    natters,

    please stop accusing these people of saying Jesus has no mother.

    No one said that.
     
  19. natters

    natters New Member

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    bapmom, on page 15 webdog said "If God's Word says He was without mother, and Jesus never referred to Mary as mother, but "woman"...". I posted verses from scripture that call Mary his "mother", and webdog still disagreed with me. Immediately after that, Eliyahu said "In my childhood I thought Jesus had no father but mother. Now I believe Jesus has Father only but no mother."
     
  20. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    I thought there are more than 2 on this thread who calls Mary the Mother of God. Let me comment in the meantime and I have some further questions to verify the difference between 2 groups, the one who calls Mary as the Mother of God and the other group who opposes to it.

    As for the previous questions:

    1. What is Mary doing now?
    We can realize from the answers by the people who call Mary as the Mother of God, that they do not know the status of Mary or what she is doing now. Isn't this remarkable for the Christian believers who read Bible ?
    Answer is that Mary is sleeping now.
    Bible shows the following clues:
    1)Now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept(1Cor 15:20)
    2)We which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.(1Thess 4:15)
    3) For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many asleep.(1Cor 11:30)
    4) Jesus mentioned "Our friend Lazarus is dead" Jn 11:14, when Lazarus was dead (Jn11:14)
    5) Even in OT Daniel mentioned " Many of them that asleep in the dust of the earth shall awake some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt" Dan 12:2
    6) Stephen fell asleep when he was martyred "he fell asleep.(Act 7:60)
    Therefore we can safely conclude that all the people including Paul, Mary, John all died in Christ, are sleeping now.
    Have you read these before ?

    2. Wrong answers from both:
    Nobody has entered the Heaven yet, but the believers who died in Christ sleep in Paradise, which may be called Bosom of Abraham or one part of Sheol (the other part of Sheol is for the unbelievers waiting for the resurrection of damnation:- Jn5:29)
    The Robber at the Cross entered Paradise as per Luke 23:43
    Later on, when Jesus comes, He will take us to the Heaven.

    3. She is sleeping now but when she wake up and realize that so many people were calling herself as Mother of God, she would say "ridiculous" because she is a believer and knows very well about the nature of human being, and that Jesus is Son of God existing from eternity to eternity, before herself, and that she was created by Jesus and created for Jesus, and that she herself had been destined to go to the hell without Jesus and needed a Savior as she confessed (Lk 1:47), now she can enter the Heaven just because Jesus shed blood at the Cross and paid all the price for her sins by dying for her. She will be satisfied with her own role by faith because she believed in God and obeyed Him and did faithfully what was assigned to her, as a temporary mother of Jesus on this earth.

    4. I think God would call Mary as Mary or deem her as woman, simply as Paul called her "woman" Gal 4:4. Even Jesus would call her Woman as he called in Jn 2:4 or in Jn19:26, or Mary, or my sister( as Heb 2:11), or Woman servant! Mary confessed herself as maidservant (Lk1:48), not Mother!

    5. Yes I mentioned that in my childhood I thought Jesus had no father but only mother, now I believe that Jesus has only Father without Mother, because I do not know him after flesh any more (2 Cor 5:16). We can call Mary as Mother of Jesus in order to identify her, as I explained previously 2-3times on this thread, as follows:
    Please read carefully what I posted:

    "I can still recognize the deity of Jesus without calling her Mother of God since she was mother of Jesus only for a short period among the eternity"

    Our role and contribution is nothing compared to the eternity and immensity of what God has done for us.

    6. Please remember that Paul mentioned Our Mother indicating Sarah-Jerusalem in Gal 4:22-26 as Jews call Sarah as their Mother.

    I think nobody has answered my question as follows:

    7. Shall we call James, Brother of Jesus as Brother of God? because Jesus is God and James was His Brother. If you deny calling James as Brother of God, then you are denying that Jesus is God, aren't you? I am asking this question to the people who call Mary as the Mother of God. Please answer!

    [ December 09, 2005, 08:54 PM: Message edited by: Eliyahu ]
     
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