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Mary was probably a nice person???

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by TP, Dec 29, 2004.

  1. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    What are your thoughts about Marian Apparitions?

    Also, why does it seem that Catholics focus so much attention on Mary?

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  2. TP

    TP Guest

    Greetings,

    You asked: What are your thoughts about Marian Apparitions?

    Response: Any Marian apparitions are in the field of private revelation. Public revelation ended with the death of Jesus and his last disciples. There is no more Public revelation. God communicated himself perfectly in his Son Jesus Christ.
    Marian apparitions are private revelation and are not mandatory for belief. In fact, the church has always been leary of marian apparitions. We cannot deny that God may work in people's lives through private revelations. God will work as he wills. But they are NOT public and not required by anyone. Even apparitions like at Lourdes or Fatima are NOT mandatory for belief. They are said to contain to NO ERROR in the apparition, but are not mandatory.
    Personally, I focus on Public revelation. Example: In some Marian apparitions it says to read scripture. Well, when teach I will NEVER say- Mary said that we should pray scripture in such and such an apparition. Rather I will say that Our church has always taught that Scripture is important and we should pray the scriptures. Even the scriptures themselves speak of their own importance.

    You asked: Also, why does it seem that Catholics focus so much attention on Mary?

    Response: Actually, I see more discussion on Protestant discussion boards about Mary than I ever see in Any Catholic Church. Example: in the seminary we have 21 credits every semester for 4 years of graduate school. Of the 168 credit hours of class only 2 credits are study of Mary in theology. Then Entire Mass(majority of Catholics spiritual life) is directed to the FATHER, through the SON, and in the HOLY SPIRIT. Mary is definitely important, but I think that protestants think there is more emphasis on Mary than there really is.

    peace
     
  3. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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  4. TP

    TP Guest

    Greetings,

    You asked: where is your Scriptural support for asking a mortal person, now in Heaven, to pray for you?

    Response: In the Book of revelations it has the people around the throne of God with bowls of incense, which is the prayers of the people. I don't have a bible with me or the exact quote, but you will find it.

    These people around the throne of God are offering the prayers of the people. Pretty clear to me.

    peace
     
  5. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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  6. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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  7. TP

    TP Guest

    Greetings,

    Joseph, you have more marian prayers than any catholic I know. You must have a real devotion.

    peace
     
  8. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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  9. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    These are all Catholic Prayers. It sure does seem as if the Catholics hold a higher view of Mary than you seem to think, claiming she is without sin, is the mother of all mankind, the Queen of Heaven, etc...

    The way your religion describes her in your prayers almost seems godlike and seems reminenscent of Mormon theology of the god and goddess worship.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  10. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    The book of Revelation is symbolic language. The four living creatures and the twenty-four elders are not particular people who are in Heaven, and certainly none of these 28 is Mary.
     
  11. TP

    TP Guest

    Greetings,

    All your prayers are very interesting. At the end of them them all it points to Jesus, Mary's son. Even though they talk up mary quite a bit, they all in the end point to Jesus.

    Also, if you knew anything about Medieval Life, you would understand these prayers well. Look up poems of courtly Love. There is a genre of Medieval poetry all devoted to the ladies of the court. To flatter the King, you would write beautiful poems about the women of the court: How fair, how beautiful, how wonderful they were. They were Non-sexual poems about the women of the court in order to praise the King. This is called poetry of courtly love.
    Most of the prayers to Mary you are referring to are written in the tradition of this courtly love tradition. They write extragently about the Mother of Jesus to Praise Jesus. It was part of the culture of the time. Understand the culture and you will understand the prayers. This is the problem with Sola Scriptura. You don't think history is important, but then you criticize eveything without understanding it.

    peace
     
  12. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    Did any of these poems claim that the medieval women were without sin, were holy, and give them godlike powers? I don't think so. The facts are, that your false religion teaches idolatry by elevating Mary as a goddess.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  13. JustAsIAm

    JustAsIAm New Member

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    Isn't there also an admonition in the Bible that we are not to practice necromancy, or communicating with the spirits of the dead? Check our Deuteronomy 18:9-14 The language is pretty strong, it is called a detestable practice before God.

    I believe the references you are looking for are from Revelations 5:8 and 8:3,4. In the first passage, those with the prayers of the saints are heavenly creatures (the four "living creatures" and 24 elders), as is the angel spoken of in the latter verse. Even if the meaning is unclear in the first passage, read the second and see who the angel receives the prayers from - God himself.

    Mary's obedience to God will always blow me away. When I am faced with a difficult challenge, especially in raising my children, I often think about her example. But she is dead and beyond hearing my prayers. I will ask the living to pray for me and look forward to meeting those who have gone before me later in heaven.
     
  14. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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  15. TP

    TP Guest

    Greetings,

    You said: Mary as a goddess.

    Response: If you think this created being, Mary, could be conceived of as divine, then your idea of God and divinity is pretty low. God of all majesty, Glory and power, creator of all the universe, who holds all being together in himself in what God is. Mary is one of his creations, granted a very important part of creation but simply a creation. My thought wouldn't be that we see Mary as to high, but that people on this board see God to low.

    By the Way: The catholic church teaches that mary is a creation, NOT a goddess. No matter how many times you assert that we believe she is a goddess, I will respond that that is wrong. Goddess worship is idolatry and the Catholic church forbids it. Please deal with what we really teach and not what you want to imagine that we teach.

    peace
     
  16. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K) Well-Known Member

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    Mary was a devoted young woman who God chose for a special task. Probably was a nice person. I still have a question though.

    Did Mary need a Saviour, TP?
     
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    This is another either-or fallacy. Either you worship at Mary's altars, pray to the dead, call her the queen of heaven and "allpowerful like Christ" and co-redemptrix with Christ, Mother of God -- OR you think "Mary is a mean person".

    The fallacy you are trying leaves No reasonable ground to choose. You leave it as does the RCC with Mary's God title -- as a choice between two errors.

    Odd that it was not EVER used by NT authors or any NT saints. Since you only leave them with "either OR choices" you would have to conclude that by refusing to use the title THEY did not believe Christ was God!

    You insist that is the only "alternative" to the title - so you are stuck in that case.

    I am not sure that some of the reformer were able to see the problem with mariolotry -- however it is clear that many who lost their lives to the RC inquisitors - were doing so out of refusal to worship Mary.

    The problem with refusal to engage in mariolotry is NOT that non-Catholics are "soooo afraid to appear Catholic" that this is their only reason for avoiding the error of mariolotry. You have to look at the reasons actually give here and on the other thread to "see" why we do refuse the error of mariolotry. Making reasons up for us - is not a compelling form of discussion.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  18. TP

    TP Guest

    Greetings,

    You asked: Did Mary need a Saviour, TP?

    Response: Yes, Mary needed a savior. God saved her at her conception rather than at her death, so that she would be prepared to Carry God within her. He created the perfect tabernacle for Jesus. Mry was a type of Ark of the covenant, carrying the presence of God. Everyone know that the ark was holy, so was Mary made Holy. Christ saved her in advance.

    If there is quick sand there are two ways save someone: 1. If they are sinking into the muck we pull them out. 2. Or we stop them before they fall into the muck. Mary was stopped in advance to be Holy Vessel needed to carry God within her.

    peace
     
  19. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    I honestly don't understand why the administration of this board allows this type of heresy to be posted here under the guise of being another "Christian" denomination. Perhaps, in order to be honest, we need a new section of the board for heretical religions. It makes me sick that they are allowed to pass off Mariology and other false teachings of the RCC as being Christian.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  20. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K) Well-Known Member

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    Proof? Biblical evidence?
     
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