Mary Worshipers

The Thy is of no concern and significance. The fact is that Jesus was declaring to Mary that John was her son. And since it was not a literal son, then it is a symbolic son, and implies the Jesus was giving her as MOTHER to everyone. And when Jesus gave his MOTHER to John, since it can't be a literal mother, it is a symbolic MOTHER, meaning that Jesus was giving his mother to all. Let's apply your logic to other verses in the Bible. Take all the places where Jesus was strictly talking to his chosen 12. By your same logic, What was said to them only applies to them only and no one else.

That is not what it says. You have taken it completely out of context.

Peter was not at the Cross at the time.

Why would Paul mention which was obvious to the christians of the day. The vast majority of the Christians of the day were Jews. Lets' delve into the GEBIRAH or GEBHIRAH.

As we will se below that Solomon instituted the position of Queen Mother:

 

continued:

The QueenMother became an important position and important entity of the Jewish faith and culture. So when we get to the point after Jesus Ascension into heaven when the writings start emerging calling Jesus the King of the Jews, Lord of Lords, and King of Kings, those Jews at the time would have immediately recognized and affirmed Mary as the Queen Mother. It was a given to the Jews as to her position in relationship to her SON the King of Heaven. Those things that were obivious from the beginning had no reason to be explained in writing. The Bible Alone Mentality ignores History and the culture of the Jewish faith. One cannot truely understand the Bible if one does not have a revelant knowledge of the Jewish Culture.

 

God is not condemning the Queen of Heaven, he is condemning the act of worshipping her.

Protestants claim Catholics worship Mary.
Catholics claim they do not worship Mary.
It's a circular argument.

One has yet to prove that any Catholic has discerned Mary as being divine:

My job requires me to travel all over the United States. I have visited a lot of Catholic Churches in an attempt to substantiate this claim that they worship Mary. To date I have not visited one service where there was apparent worship of Mary. What I have seen, is that scripture abounds during the service.

Posters have posted cites in Hispanic countries where there appears to be worship of Mary. Then again it just an appearance. Until one can actually prove that they recoginize Mary as a member of the Godhead, then it's a red herring statement.

Is it worship, if a Catholic holds Mary up on a pedestal and venerate her with respect for she being the "Mother of God the Son"? No.

Let's look at what is worship is from a Biblical standpoint:

If worship is implied by the first definition then very few people are actually worshipping God in the proper way by prostrating oneself.

If you had the opportunity to visit the Queen of England, would you bow to her in a gesture of respect for her position or you just stand there? Bowing to a queen or king is not worshipping.

With reference to any of the definitions above, it is only worship when you via your *intellect* makes a firm decision to believe that the person being paid homage is Divine or that the person created the world.

do (make) obeisance

o·bei·sance A gesture or movement of the body, such as a curtsy, that expresses deference or homage. An attitude of deference or homage.

hom·age Ceremonial acknowledgment by a vassal of allegiance to his lord under feudal law. Special honor or respect shown or expressed publicly.

How many military people or ex-military people do you have here? The act of saluting a superior is a gesture of deference or homage.

How about going to a funeral home or funeral to pay respect to the deceased. That is paying homage to the person's memory.

How about men standing up when a Woman either enters a room or stands up. All are acts of obeisance.

If you were granted the opportunity to hear the President speak, when he entered the room, would you stand in homage and obeisance or would you remain seated?

Or and let us not forget the worship of the American Flag. We all stand up and we all place our right hand over our heart and make a Profession of Faith toward an Idol of Cloth. Military even salute this Idol of Cloth.

If you want to say that Catholics worship Mary, then must acknowledge your own worship of those things that are not of God by your own definition.

As Fundiefighter said: CASE CLOSED.

 

Jews are not christians. I am referring to the Jews of the days during and immediate after Christ. So christian converts would have recognized her as the Queen Mother.

 

Tim 4:8 - Paul says that there is laid up for him the crown of righteousness. The saints are crowned in heaven, and Mary is the greatest saint of all.

James 1:12 - those who endure will receive the crown of life which God has promised. Mary has received the crown of life by bringing eternal life to the world.

1 Peter 5:4 - when the chief Shepherd is manifested we will receive the unfading crown of glory.

Rev. 2:10 - Jesus will give the faithful unto death the crown of life. Jesus gave Mary His Mother the crown of life.

Rev. 12:1 - Mary, the "woman," is crowned with twelve stars. She is Queen of heaven and earth and the Mother of the Church.

2 Tim 4:8 - Paul says that there is laid up for him the crown of righteousness. The saints are crowned in heaven, and Mary is the greatest saint of all.

James 1:12 - those who endure will receive the crown of life which God has promised. Mary has received the crown of life by bringing eternal life to the world.

1 Peter 5:4 - when the chief Shepherd is manifested we will receive the unfading crown of glory.

Rev. 2:10 - Jesus will give the faithful unto death the crown of life. Jesus gave Mary His Mother the crown of life.

Rev. 12:1 - Mary, the "woman," is crowned with twelve stars. She is Queen of heaven and earth and the Mother of the Church.

 

Eph. 3:14-15- we are all one family ("Catholic") in heaven and on earth, united together, as children of the Father, through Jesus Christ. Our brothers and sisters who have gone to heaven before us are not a different family. We are one and the same family. This is why, in the Apostles Creed, we profess a belief in the "communion of saints." There cannot be a "communion" if there is no union. Loving beings, whether on earth or in heaven, are concerned for other beings, and this concern is reflected spiritually through prayers for one another.

Eph. 1:22-23; 5:23-32; Col. 1:18,24 - this family is in Jesus Christ, the head of the body, which is the Church.
1 Cor. 12:12,27; Rom. 12:5; Col. 3:15; Eph. 4:4 - we are the members of the one body of Christ, supernaturally linked together by our partaking of the Eucharist.
Rom. 8:35-39 - therefore, death does not separate the family of God and the love of Christ. We are still united with each other, even beyond death.
Matt. 17:3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30 - Jesus converses with "deceased" Moses and Elijah. They are more alive than the saints on earth.
Matt. 22:32; Mark 12:27; Luke 20:38 - God is the God of the living not the dead. The living on earth and in heaven are one family.
Luke 15:7,10 – if the angels and saints experience joy in heaven over our repentance, then they are still connected to us and are aware of our behavior.
John 15:1-6 - Jesus is the vine and we are the branches. The good branches are not cut off at death. They are alive in heaven.
1 Cor. 4:9 – because we can become a spectacle not only to men, but to angels as well, this indicates that angels are aware of our earthly activity. Those in heaven are connected to those on earth.
1 Cor. 12:26 - when one member suffers, all suffer. When one is honored, all rejoice. We are in this together as one family.
1 Cor 13:12; 1 John 3:2 - now we see in a mirror dimly, but in heaven we see face to face. The saints are more alive than we are!
Heb. 12:1 - we are surrounded by a great glory cloud (shekinah) of witnesses, our family in heaven. We are not separated. The “cloud of witnesses” (nephos marturon) refers to a great amphitheatre with the arena for the runners (us on earth), and many tiers of seats occupied by the saints (in heaven) rising up like a cloud. The “martures” are not mere spectators (“theatai”), but testifiers (witnesses) who testify from their own experience to God’s promises and cheer us on in our race to heaven. They are no less than our family in heaven.
1 Peter 2:9; Rev. 20:6 - we are a royal family of priests by virtue of baptism. We as priests intercede on behalf of each other.
2 Peter 1:4 - since God is the eternal family and we are His children, we are partakers of His divine nature as a united family.
1 Cor. 1:2; Rom. 1:7 - we are called to be saints. Saints refer to both those on earth and in heaven who are in Christ. Proof:
Acts 9:13,32,41; 26:10; 1 Cor. 6:1-2; 14:33; 2 Cor. 1:1; 8:4; 9:1-2; 13:13; Rom. 8:27; 12:23; 15:25,26, 31; 16:2,15; Eph. 1:1,15,18; 3:8; 5:3; 6:18; Phil. 1:1; 4:22; Col 1:2,4,26; 1 Tm 5:10; Philemon 1:5,7; Heb. 6:10; 13:24; Jude 1:3; Rev. 11:18; 13:7; 14:12; 16:6; 17:6;18:20,24; Rev 19:8; 20:9 - in these verses, we see that Christians still living on earth are called "saints."
Matt. 27:52; Eph. 2:19; 3:18; Col. 1:12; 2 Thess. 1:10; Rev. 5:8; 8:3-4; 11:18; 13:10 - in these verses, we also see that "saints" also refer to those in heaven who united with us. Dan. 4:13,23; 8:23 – we also see that the angels in heaven are also called “saints.” The same Hebrew word “qaddiysh” (holy one) is applied to both humans and angels in heaven. Hence, there are angel saints in heaven and human saints in heaven and on earth. Loving beings (whether angels or saints) are concerned for other beings, and prayer is the spiritual way of expressing that love.

 

Those that take the mark of the beast will bow down before a living person and will intelligently deduce that this antichrist is a God.

 

That's your opinion. And do you expect me to take the word of Jew on his interpretation of scripture when the Jew cannot even recognize the fact the JESUS is the MESSIAH? Get real dude.

 

Posture in Prayer, Veneration and Worship

Deut. 5:9 - God's command, "you shall not bow down to them" means "do not worship them." But not all bowing is worship. Here God's command is connected to false worship.

Rev. 3:9 - Jesus said people would bow down before the faithful members of the church of Philadelphia. This bowing before the faithful is not worship, just as kissing a picture of a family member is not worship.

Gen. 19:1 - Lot bowed down to the ground in veneration before two angels in Sodom.

Gen. 24:52 - Abraham's servant bowed himself to the earth before the Lord.

Gen. 42:6 - Joseph's brothers bow before Joseph with the face to the ground.

Jos. 5:14 - Joshua fell to the ground prostrate in veneration before an angel.

1 Sam. 28:14 - Saul bows down before Samuel with his face to the ground in honor and veneration.

1 Kings 1:23 - the prophet Nathan bows down before King David.

2 Kings 2:15 - the sons of the prophets bow down to Elisha at Jericho.

1 Chron. 21:21 - Ornan the Jebusite did obeisance to king David with his face to the ground.

1 Chron. 29:20 - Israelites bowed down to worship God and give honor to the king.

2 Chron. 29:29-30 - King Hezekiah and the assembly venerate the altar by bowing down in worship before the sin offerings.

Psalm 138:2 - David bows down before God's Holy Temple.

Dan. 2:46 - the king fell down on his face paying homage to Daniel and commands that an offering be made to him.

Dan. 8:17 - Daniel fell down prostrate in veneration before the angel Gabriel.

 

Veneration / Honor of the Saints

Matt. 18:10 - the angels in heaven always behold the face of God. We venerate them for their great dignity and union with God.


Matt. 15:4; Luke 18:20; Eph. 6:2-3 Exodus 20:12; Lev. 19:3; Deut. 5:16 - we are instructed to honor our father and mother.

Luke 1:28 - the angel Gabriel venerates Mary by declaring to her "Hail, full of grace." The heavenly angel honors the human Mary, for her perfection of grace exceeds that of the angels.

Romans 13:7 - we are to give honor where honor is due. When we honor God's children, we honor God Himself, for He is the source of all honor.

1 Cor. 4:16 - the most important form of veneration of the saints is "imitating" the saints, as Paul commands us to do.

1 Cor. 11:1 - again, Paul says, "Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ." The ultimate objective of veneration is imitation.

Phil. 2:25-29 - Paul teaches us to honor Epaprhoditus who almost died for the faith. How much more honor is owed to the saints that did die for the faith!

Phil. 3:17 - Paul says to imitate him and others, which is the goal of veneration. Veneration is not worship.

1 Thess. 1:6 – Paul says to the Thessalonians, “You became imitators of us and of the Lord.” This is the goal of veneration.

2 Thess. 3:7 - Paul says that the Thessalonians should imitate him and the other bishops.

Hebrews 3:3 - Jesus is worthy of "more" glory and honor than Moses. This does not mean that the saints are worthy of no glory and honor. Instead, it proves that saintly people are worthy of glory and honor out of God's goodness.

Heb. 6:12 – the author teaches us to be imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

Heb. 13:7 - we must imitate the faith of our faithful leaders. We ask for their intercession and venerate them for their holiness.

James 5:10-11 – James teaches us to take heart in the examples of the prophets and Job, who endured suffering.

1 Peter 2:17 - Peter teaches us to honor all men, love the brotherhood, fear God, honor the emperor. Don't those living with Christ in heaven deserve honor? Catholics believe they do, and honor them with special feast days, just as we honor those living by celebrating their birthdays.

Gen. 19:1 - Lot venerates the two angels in Sodom, bowing himself with his face to the ground.

Gen. 42:6 - Joseph's brothers bow before Joseph with the face to the ground. This is veneration, not worship.

Exodus 28:2 - it is especially important to honor religious leaders. Sacred garments for Aaron give him dignity and honor.

Lev. 19:32- we should also honor "the face of an old man." When the elderly die in Christ, we should continue honoring them, because death does not separate them from us or the love of Christ.

1 Sam. 28:14 - Saul bows down before Samuel with his face to the ground in veneration.

2 Chron. 32:33 - Hezekiah was honored at his death. We honor our brothers and sisters in the Lord.

 

Isaac is in Heaven.
Jacob is in Heaven.
Abraham is in Heaven.
God is God of the Living and not the dead.
God is God of Abraham, the God of Jacob, the God of Isaac.
Therefore, Abraham, Jacob, and Isaac are very much alive. They are more alive than we are. They are more alive than you are.
Those that stand before the throne of God are alive.
We are dead in comparison.
Those in heaven have actual eternal life.
We on earth have just the promise of eternal life.

 

If you think he was at the cross, where is the biblical proof of it.

 

that's your opinion.

 

Anti-Catholic attacks on Mary

Here is a dialog.

Patron: I was reading your defense on the Assumption of Mary and your argument is rather weak friend. You had mentioned that since they don't know where she is buried and did not have her bones she was assumed into Heaven. Let me ask you this: Where was the Apostle John buried? You don't know because there is not even a single historical record of his death. We then will assume he was assumed to Heaven also. You are also taking the references to Revelations out of context and even your Catholic theologians disagree on Mary being the woman with the crown and twelve stars. You must examine all your tradition against scripture to see if it contradicts. You just can't believe anything Rome comes up with. I am a skilled debator and an expert on Catholacism. I was in your church for over 20 yrs until Jesus woke me up to truth.

J. Salza: Thank you for your message. We don't believe that Mary was assumed into heaven because we can't find her bones. We believe in the assumption of Mary because that has been the teaching tradition of the Church for 2,000 years. While this teaching is not explicitly found in Scripture, it certainly was prophesied in Psalm 132:8, and made evident to John in his revelation when he sees “the woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under feet and on her head a crown with twelve stars” (Apoc 12:1-2). There is also nothing in Scripture that precludes Mary’s assumption. Indeed, if sin is what leads to death and Mary had no sin, then we can surmise that she was taken up into heaven, body and soul.

You have indicated that you are "a skilled debater and an expert on Catholacism" (it is actually spelled “Catholicism”). I will safely assume that this means you believe that the Bible is the sole and exclusive authority for God's word, and that your interpretation of the Scriptures are always correct. As a skilled debater, please explain to me where this is stated in the Bible?

Patron: My friend, I believe it is you who needs to research the early fathers better. Here is a little history lesson for you. I suggest you brush up on your Greek also. In ublic debate you would be rather simple to defeat. You still have not given me one single document or witness to the assumption of Mary. I have researched this extensively and have found nothing. There was not even one mention of this false doctrine in the first 500 yrs of the church (see attachments).

J. Salza: Friend, your cutting and pasting from Protestant web sites is painfully evident. Please come up with your own material. I have been through these debates many times. Your argument below presupposes that there must be biblical evidence or a witness to something or else it is not true. Yet, you are unable to prove your presupposition from the Bible. Hence, any response is a non sequitur.

P.S. Who saw the resurrection of Christ? No one. Yet it is true. Yeah, I know, but the apostles saw Jesus after he rose from the dead. This still does not support your presupposition. Nevertheless, while no one saw Mary assumed into heaven, John saw her in heaven as he writes in the book of Revelation. While he writes about the "souls" in heaven before the throne of God, he also writes about a woman clothed with the sun, on her "head" a crown of 12 stars, and under her "feet" the moon. This means a woman with a body, not just her soul. Yes, I know its apocalyptic literature unique to the 1st century, and yes I know the woman can also be a reference to the Church. But the fathers and doctors all agree that the woman principally signifies Mary, the new Eve and Queen Mother of the Davidic Kingdom. In fact, let's see if you can come up with a father or doctor of the Church who says it is NOT Mary. I am waiting.

Patron: Friend, you need to study your Catechism more. If you read number 969 you will she Mary is called Advocate, Helper, Benefactress and Mediatrix.

J. Salza: Yes, it is true that Mary is all of these. Mediatrix simply means that she can mediate, or pray to God, on our behalf. If I would ask you to pray for me, you would be mediating for me. But all of our mediation, including Mary's, is subordinate to Christ. Christ is the reason. He allows us to participate in his mediation, just like he allows us to share in his sufferings (Col. 1:24), to further the work of his redemption. If you look at my links on subordinate mediation and intercessory prayer, you will see the Scriptures replete with verses supporting these positions. So do the Church fathers and doctors.

Patron: Number 971 tells us to give devotion and prayer to her. Last I knew friend that when you pray to someone, kneel down in front of a statue of her or light candles to her I call that worship. I don't know what you call it.

J. Salza: You confuse devotion with worship. Mary herself, under the divine inspiration of God, predicted that "all generations will call me blessed." That is called devotion. Catholics call Mary blessed because of the unique role she played in our salvation. This has nothing to do with worship. The paragraph even distinguishes the devotion we give to Mary from the latria we give to God and God alone. Looks like you are not part of the family of generations that calls Mary blessed.

Patron: Let us now consider Catechism number 841. What does your church say about Muslims and salvation? It says that together us they adore the one and are part of the Christian community. You need to defend this statement also.

J. Salza: The Church says that Moslems, and all people, are included in God's plan of salvation because that is true. God wishes that all people will be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. The paragraph does not say, as you suggest, that Moslems are part of the Christian community. They are not. It is true that Moslems, like Christians, hold Abraham to be their father in faith. Moslems hence worship the creator of the universe. The issue, of course, is that their understanding of God is in error. Everyone, including Jews and Moslems, have a moral obligation to join the Catholic Church to be saved. But remaining outside the Church, if it is due to their invincible ignorance, does not automatically prevent their salvation. God will judge them based upon what they know.

Patron: Mary as the Ark of the Covenant has got to be the most STUPID thing I have ever heard.

J. Salza:Then you disagree with 2,000 years of Church teaching, as well as the early Church fathers, and have set yourself up as your own arbiter of truth. See my link on this - Luke deliberately makes comparisons between Mary and the Ark of the Covenant as described in the book of Samuel. John links the Ark of the Covenant in Revelation with Mary, the woman clothed with the sun. Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant because she bore the Word of God. I set forth these comparisons in my book The Biblical Basis for the Catholic Faith (pp. 130-131).

 

dialogue continued

Patron: Mary is not the Ark of the Covenant, because the Covenant was not made through Mary. It was made through Jesus by His Death.

J. Salza: The ark of the covenant has nothing to do with the maker of the covenant, so this argument is irrelevant.

Patron: Secondly, Mary is not an Ark, she is a human being -- and the Bible clearly tells us that ALL humans sinned without exception. (Romans 3:23 --ALL humans that have been conceived by a man and woman WILL eventually commit sin).

J. Salza: Mary is described as the Ark because she contained the eternal Word of God. Of course Mary is not an ark of wood, but Jesus (being the Word) was not stone tablets either. If the word of God became incarnate, then His ark can be of flesh as well. Also, I have a link on Romans 3:23. Your reading of the verse is erroneous. Not all human beings sin. Babies, the retarded, the senile cannot sin. Paul means that all were born of original sin. Paul also tells the Romans that all have sinned, so all were made righteous. But not all were made righteous because not all people will go to heaven. This is because the Greek word for all is "pantes" and pantes does not mean every single one. In Romans 5:19, Paul says "many" (in Greek, “polloi”) have sinned, which means when Paul says “all,” he really means “many.”

Patron: Do yourself a favour and gain some WISDOM before it's too late.

J. Salza: Do yourself a favor and read Scripture in light of the teachings of the Catholic Church who gave you them.

Patron: Queen of Heaven? What a joke! Show me in the Bible where it says Mary is the queen of Heaven?

J. Salza: Show me in the Bible where it says that it has to be in the Bible to be true. You can't, because it doesn't. The fullness of Christian truth comes from both the oral and the written word of God. See 2 Thess. 2:15. This is the sacred Tradition of the Church. Please investigate why you believe in the Bible. Why do you accept the declaration of the Catholic Church that the 27 books of the New Testament are divinely inspired, but not her other teachings about Mary? Sounds like you are a cafeteria Christian, caught in the snares of Bible-alone, private judgment theology. That is error. Please continue to investigate the teachings of the true faith of Christ, the Catholic faith.

Patron: Look up the word "mother" in the Dictionary. What is a mother? My mother gave birth to me, suckled me, nursed me, cleaned me, held me, taught me, loved me. When did Mary ever do any of these things for me? She never did. So then how can Mary be my mother?

J. Salza: Mary is your spiritual mother because she loves you and prays for you in heaven. Read Revelation 12 - Mary is the woman clothed with the sun, and at the end of the chapter, she is called the Mother of all Christians - those who follow Jesus. If you are a Christian (and it is hard to tell based on the venom in your messages), then Mary is your mother. Don’t look to secular dictionaries when you try to exegete Scripture; look to the Scriptures and the Fathers who interpreted them for us.
Also, God the Father did not “suckle” you, “nurse” you, “clean” you, and “hold” you. So how can He really be your Father? Are you arguing that He is not your Father? If you are, then you gravely contradict Scripture and demonstrate a profound misunderstanding of Christianity. If you are not, then you have to reformulate your position by advancing other reasons why Mary isn’t your heavenly mother, just as God is your heavenly Father.

Patron: Surely I would have to be a complete IDIOT to believe that a woman who did absolutely NOTHING for me is my mother. What a load of BULLCRAP!

J. Salza: Very charitable. I wonder why certain Protestant Christians get so angry when we tell them that Mary is their mother? This is likely due to the fact that the have had bad relationships with their earthly mother. They have a tendency to equate their earthly mother with their heavenly mother, and they don’t want to do this if their earthly mother has mistreated them. People often do this with God the Father as well, if they have had bad earthly fathers.

Patron: So Jesus gave Mary to John. SO WHAT? How does that make Mary our mother? You Catholics must all have SHIT for brains if you can't see that John was supposed to look after Mary in her old age!

J. Salza: Evidently, you don’t think much of the words Jesus uttered in agony on the cross right before He died? All words Jesus said on the cross had a divine purpose. While Jesus was asking John to take care of Mary, Jesus was asking Mary to take care of John as well, even “in her old age.” That is because Jesus was giving Mary to all of us, and asking us to give ourselves to Mary in return. You obviously are ignorant of what the early Christians believed about this. Your 21st century perspective is good enough for you. Mary is our Mother because she is the new Eve, just as Jesus is the new Adam. Mary is the mother of the new creation in Christ.

Patron: Your Marian doctrines are a load of BULLSHIT. Mary is NOT my mother, never was, and never will be. My mother is here with me NOW, and she is the ONLY mother GOD gave me. And I can assure you that MY MOTHER LOVES ME MORE than Mary ever will. The woman of Revelation 12:1 is the same woman of Ezekiel 16 -- and that woman is ISRAEL. You people think you are very clever to twist, contort, and pervert the Holy Word of God to make them fit to your own ideas, but you are nothing but a DEN of VIPERS, SONS of SATAN, because only Satan would dare to pervert the Holy Word of God as your evil Church has done. And to top it all off, you pray to sinful HUMAN BEINGS in defiance of Christ's Commandment which command you to pray to His Father in Heaven. You have to be mentally retarded to believe that a human being can hear or answer your prayers!

J. Salza: You obviously lack the Spirit of God and Christian charity using that kind of language. Get a grip on yourself. When people use that kind of language, it demonstrates that they can’t fight their own intellectual battles, so they instead resort to name-calling. This is unfortunate.
Let’s get to the heart of the matter. You are assuming that the Bible is the sole rule and guide of faith, and that God has revealed nothing outside the Bible that is necessary for our salvation. This is wrong. How do you know what books belong in the Bible? How do you know what is divinely inspired, using the Bible alone? You don't, because the Bible does not include an inspired table of contents. Yet you would agree that knowing what books are inspired can only come from God, and knowing what books are inspired is necessary for our salvation. But since the Bible does not say what books belong in the Bible, this forces you to look outside the Bible to learn how the canon of Scripture was selected. This determination was made by the Catholic Church at her various councils in 382, 393 and 397 A.D.
This is a truth that you Protestants simply cannot refute. Therefore, start becoming familiar with history, and abandon your private judgment, non-biblical "Bible-only" fallacy and listen to the Catholic Church, which is the pillar and foundation of the truth (1 Tim. 3:15). This dialogue is over until you can effectively address this issue - but you can't unless you become Catholic. That, of course, will require you to empty yourself and seek the truth.