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Mary Worshipers

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by mojoala, Jul 21, 2006.

  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    So the question is - why don't Christians pray to the dead as the RCC teaches its followers to do?

    In 1 Cor 10 Paul makes the case that those who "think" they are worshipping family gods at pagan altars are unwittingly worshipping demons!



    They unwittingly participate because they are deceived into thinking that the family idol is "something friendly" that can help them



    What then of those who pray to the dead?
     
  2. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    God forbids communion with the dead on behalf of the Living in Isaiah 8:19 without limiting that restriction to "and when the dead start speaking about the future - stop listening". In other words it is communion with the dead without reference to the text of the conversation and even without reference to how much they are talking back as you "consult" them in prayer as one would "pray to God". Notice that in the Isaiah 8 text it says that instead of consulting them we are to consult God - instead of praying to them we are to pray to God -

    We do not "conjure" God up and speak to Him "About the future" in prayer. The form of communion is the same in Isaiah 8. It is to be directed to God "instead" of the dead. All kinds of the dead - even the "dead in Christ".

    The question is raised "yes by why not communion with them" - that is an argument with the text of God's Word.

    Making the argument that the dead are our friends and God has conquered the last enemy - death not only in His OWN resurrection but also for dead saints (which in fact the Apostolic teaching says is NOT the case until the 2nd coming in 1Cor 15 "The LAST enemy to be conquered is DEATH") - simply opens the door fully to the spiritist medium while denying both NT and OT instruction on the point.



     
  3. mojoala

    mojoala New Member

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    Commentary on John 19:26-27

    This scene has been interpreted literally, of Jesus' concern for his mother; and symbolically, eg., in the light of the Cana story in chapter 2(the presence of the mother of Jesus, the address woman, and the mention of the hour) and of the upper room in Chapter 13(the presence of the beloved disciple; the hour).

    Now that the hour has come (verse 28), Mary(a symbol of the church?) is given a role as the mother of Christians(personified by the beloved disciple); or, as a representative of those seeking salvation, she is supported by the disciple who interprets Jesus' revelation; or Jewish and Gentile Christianity(or Israel and the Christian community) are reconciled.
     
  4. Love of Christ

    Love of Christ New Member

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    Jesus said : “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." (John 14 : 6)
     
  5. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    Could you not read that I was mentioning MESSIANIC JEWS ?
    Do you know that there are some Jews who accept Jesus Christ as their messiah and believe in Jesus Christ( Yeshuah Ha-Masiach) ?

    I mentioned Messianic Jews because you referred to Jews first, without knowing them properly.

    Which Jew at the time of Christ or at early church called Mary as Queen Mother?

    Nooooobooooody!
     
  6. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    If any living creature claims that he or she is a deity such as God, son of god, gods, etc, and the people bow down to such creature, then it is worship.
    If anyone recognize other person and pay due respect, it is not.
    Read the Bible, Have you read Exodus 32 yet?

    What did they do with the calf?

    How does Mary look like? does she look like Elizabeth Taylor? What if your sculpture has the face of King Herod's wife's?

    Is anyone mentioned in the Bible who left the image or photo of the face so that people make images and pay respect to the image ?

    Idol worshippers make all the excuses and you are not the exception, unfortunately.
     
  7. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    Majoala,

    You studied Bible quite well !
    But I must tell you that you should your time and ability for the Lord in the way in which He taught you.

    Now, I want to confirm again,
    1) Bowing down doesn't automatically mean the worship.
    2) Bowing down to the living person was a kind of Greeting in the ancient times. Even today in some countries like China, Korea, Japan, bowing down is a kind of greetings.
    In that case, bowing down was done to the person who was living and never claimed as god.
    4) Even if a person is still living, if the person claims that he or she is a god and ask the people to bow down, then it means the veneration which betrays the belief in the Only God, and therefore it is either Idol Worship or the False god Worship.
    5) Bowing down to the statue of the dead person ( Mary) is apparently idol worship. Read Isaiah 42-44.

    6) Key criteria about whether it is a simple Respect or Worship is Veneration, whether veneration is included or not.

    Now, what if anyone destroys the statue of Mary with a baseball bat?
    The statue was made of ceramic and a man realized the statue means nothing, and then destroyed the head of the statue of Holy Mother Mary.
    What would you say to him? What kind of sin did he commit?
     
  8. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    Do you know that the Church is the Bride of Christ? Read Ephesians 5:22-30.
    Then does Jesus take His mother as wife ?

    What a contradiction that is !

    Why does Paul call Sarah as our Mother ? Read Galatians 4.

    Why does Peter say the women believers are the daughters of Sarah ? Read 1 Pet 3:6

    Answer me!

    Show me the verse, Mary is our mother !

    Why didn't Jesus say " Your mother " but say "thy mother" to John in John 19:26-27

    I am amazed at your technique to expand the interpretation of Mary's role!

    You are so eager to have Mary's capacity expanded so much.

    But Read Revelation thru. Could you find Mary's name there ? Is she sitting beside the Lamb of God? or beside God ?
    Why is she ignored there ?
     
    #108 Eliyahu, Aug 1, 2006
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2006
  9. mojoala

    mojoala New Member

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    Eve is the mother of the human race. Therefore she is the ancestral biological mother of us all.
    Mary is the New Eve.
    Mary is the Mother of GOD, the divine person of Jesus Christ.


    "...and he has put all things under his feet and has made him the head over all things for the church, which is his body, the fulness of him who fills all in all." Ephesians 1:22-23

    The Church is the Body of Christ, and He is the head.

    "Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it." 1Corinthians 12:27
    We, the members, are the Church which is the Body of Christ.
    Since each one of us is a member of the Body of Christ, and the Blessed Virgin Mary is the Mother of Jesus the Christ, then is it not true that she is our mother as well?


    Since the Son IS the Church, along with the rest of us,
    then the mother of His Body is without question the Mother of the Church as well.

    The book of Galatians 4:21-31, has within some very important and densely packed verses:
    "(21) Tell me, you who desire to be under law, do you not hear the law? (22) For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one (Ishmael) by a slave (Hagar) and one (Isaac) by a free woman (Sarah). (23) But the son of the slave was born (Genesis 16:15) according to the flesh, the son of the free woman through promise (Genesis 17:15-16, 21:1-3, Isaiah 7:14, Luke 1:35). (24) Now this is an allegory: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. (25) Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia; she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. (26) But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. (27) For it is written, "Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear; break forth and shout, you who are not in travail; for the children of the desolate one are many more than the children of her that is married." (28) Now we, brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise. (29) But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now. (30) But what does the scripture say? "Cast out the slave and her son; for the son of the slave shall not inherit with the son of the free woman." (31) So, brethren, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman."
    Galatians 4:21-31

    What are the many facts which are carefully packed within these verses, some of which are missed without serious study?
    Let us have a closer look:

    1. "Now this is an allegory" of verse 24, indicated that the verses will be dealing with typology.
    2. Abraham is a type of Jesus Christ. Both had sublime obedience to GOD (Genesis 22:18-19, Luke 22:42).
    3. Isaac was born to Sarah, the wife of Abraham. Sarah is the Old Testament "free woman through promise" (Genesis 17:15-16).
    4. Isaac is a type of Jesus Christ (Genesis 17:19). Sarah is a type of the Blessed Virgin Mary (Genesis 17:15-16).
    5. Jesus Christ was born to Mary, who is the New Testament "free woman through promise", (Isaiah 7:14, Luke 1:35-38).
    6. The "present Jerusalem" of verse 25 is equated to Hagar.
    7. The "Jerusalem above" of verse 26 is equated to Sarah, and by typical association to The Blessed Virgin Mary.
    8. In verse 26, the "Jerusalem above" is referred to as "she", and she is our mother.
    9. In verse 29, "him who was born according to the Spirit" can be none other than Jesus Christ (Luke 1:35-38). Who can deny that those born according to the flesh have persecuted Him and His Church from the very beginning and to this very day?
    10. Verse 31 makes it strikingly clear that we all are children of the "free woman" who can be none other than Sarah in the Old Testament and the Blessed Virgin Mary in the New Testament.
    11. Did you notice that when the verses used the word 'woman' it was always applied to the free woman, or to the woman through promise, or to the Jerusalem above? Hagar is always referred to as the slave, or the one from Mount Sinai, or the present Jerusalem. Verse 24 refers to both as 'women', but in a different context. It has a literal context, simply meaning more than one. The word 'woman', however, has a spiritual context as we shall see.

    Why is the word "woman" of such significance here?
    The 'woman' can be found in the first book of the Bible, the last book, of the Bible and in the middle of the Bible:

    "I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel." Genesis 3:15

    "Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign. Behold a virgin (young woman in some Bibles) shall conceive, and bear a son and his name shall be called Emmanuel." Isaiah 7:14

    "And Jesus said to her, "O woman, what have you to do with me? My hour has not yet come." John 2:4
    The use of the word 'woman' in this verse is a reference to Genesis 3:15 where GOD promised salvation through the offspring of the 'woman'. He will come through her to crush the head of the serpent. Jesus reminded us in John 2:4, that He is the saviour promised in Genesis 3:15.

    "When Jesus saw his mother, and the disciple whom he loved standing near, he said to his mother, "Woman, behold, your son!" Then he said to the disciple, "Behold, your mother!" And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home." John 19:26-27
    Again a reference to Genesis 3:15 reinforcing the woman of that verse as being His mother.
    The disciple Jesus referred to as, "whom He loved", was the Apostle John, the author of the Gospel which bears his name. Why didn't John use his name here when he wrote his Gospel instead of the wording that he did use? It is because "the disciple whom Jesus loved" represents all of us. We are all His disciples, and He loves all of us. This conclusion becomes obvious if you reverse the phrase and ask, 'Was John the only disciple He loved?' Of course not. Jesus had told the world that His mother was not only John's mother then, but our mother as well.

    "And a great sign appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars;" Revelation 12:1
    Go here for a comprehensive explanation of why this verse is referenced to the Blessed Virgin Mary and not only to Israel and/or the Church, as non-Catholics teach.
    Thus the woman of the first book of the Bible, is also the woman of the last book of the Bible.


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "Then Jesus said to them, "Do not be afraid; go and tell my brethren (brothers) to go to Galilee, and there they will see me."
    Matthew 28:10
    "Jesus said to her, "Do not hold me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brethren (brothers) and say to them, I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God." John 20:17
    (And to whom did she go in the very next verse 18? She went to His disciples)
    "For he who sanctifies and those who are sanctified have all one origin. That is why he is not ashamed to call them brethren (brothers), saying, "I will proclaim thy name to my brethren, in the midst of my Church I will praise thee.""
    Hebrews 2:12-13

    So there you have it by His own words. If Jesus Christ is our brother, then the Blessed Virgin Mary is our mother.

    Elucidation:
    If GOD is our Father, John 20:17 and Jesus is our brother, then the Mary is our mother.
    As Eve is the biological mother of the human race, so the Mary is the spiritual mother.


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "Do not be troubled or weighed down with grief.
    Do not fear any illness, or vexation, anxiety or pain.
    Am I not here who am your Mother?
    Are you not under my shadow and protection?
    Am I not your fountain of life? Are you not in the folds of my mantle?
    In the crossing of my arms? Is there anything else you need?"

    The Mary said these things to Juan Diego on December 9, 1531,
    during the Miracle of Guadalupe.
     
  10. mojoala

    mojoala New Member

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    The Old Testament prefigures people, objects, and happenings of the New Testament. As an example, the O.T. "types" of Jesus Christ are numerous, Adam, Abraham, Joseph, Moses, and David just to name a few. The O.T. "type" is always inferior to the N.T. reality, or "antitype", and sometimes it is the opposite. Adam is a "type" of Jesus Christ, and Jesus is even called "The Last Adam" in 1Cor 15:45.
    So now we have a first and second Adam. However Adam had Eve, the mother of all humanity. Typology of Scripture would not be viable unless it "typed" a New Eve as well as a New Adam. The purpose of this file is to show that the New Eve, Mary, also had many "types" in the O.T..

    Eve, the O.T."Type".........................Mary, the N.T. "Antitype"
    Created without original sin, Gen 2:22-25.........Created without original sin, Luke 1:28,42 *1

    There was a virgin, Gen 2:22-25.......................There is a virgin, Luke 1:27-34

    There was a tree, Gen 2:16-17..........................There was a cross made from a tree, Matt 27:31-35

    There was a fallen angel, Gen 3:1-13................There was a loyal angel, Luke 1:26-38

    A satanic serpent tempted her, Gen 3:4-6...........A satanic dragon threatened her, Rev 12:4-6,13-17

    There was pride, Gen 3:4-7...............................There was humility, Luke 1:38

    There was disobedience, Gen 3:4-7....................There was obedience, Luke 1:38

    There was a fall, Gen 3:16-20...........................There was redemption, John 19:34

    Death came through Eve, Gen 3:17-19..............Life Himself came through Mary, John 10:28

    She was mentioned in Genesis 3:2-22................She was mentioned in Genesis 3:15

    Could not approach the tree of life Gen 3:24......Approached the "Tree of Life", John 19:25

    An angel kept her out of Eden, Gen 3:24............An angel protected her, Rev 12:7-9

    Prophecy of the coming of Christ, Gen 3:15.......The Incarnation of Christ, Luke 2:7

    Firstborn was a man child, Gen 4:1...................Firstborn was a man child, Luke 2:7, Rev 12:5

    Firstborn became a sinner, Gen 4:1-8................Firstborn was the Savior, Luke 2:34

    The mother of all the living, Gen 3:20................The spiritual mother of all the living, John 19:27

    Returned to dust, Gen 3:19................................Taken to Heaven, Rev 11:19,12:1
    *
    1. Since Eve was created without original sin as well as Adam, then the realities of these Old Testament "types" had to be without original sin also. We know that Jesus had no original sin, and so Mary, the New Testament reality of Eve had to be without original sin also, or else she was inferior to her "type". See " The Immaculate Conception " on this website.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    What did the Church Fathers have to say about the "New Eve"?
    Saint Justin the Martyr, in about 155 A.D., wrote:
    "'...and that He became Man by the Virgin so that the course which was taken by disobedience in the beginning through the agency of the serpent, might be also the very course by which it would be put down. For Eve, a virgin and undefiled, conceived the word of the serpent, and bore disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy when the angel Gabriel announced to her the glad tidings that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her and the powers of the Most High would overshadow her, for which reason the Holy One being born of her would be called the Son of God. And she replied: 'Be it done unto me according to thy word.'"
    Dialogue with Trypho (100) (Jurgens-141)
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Saint Irenaeus wrote this between 180-199 A.D.:
    "Consequently, then, Mary the Virgin is found to be obedient, saying: "Behold, O Lord, your handmaid; be it done to me according to your word." Eve, however, was disobedient; and when yet a virgin, she did not obey.... having become disobedient, was made the cause of death for herself and for the whole human race; so also Mary, betrothed to a man but nevertheless still a virgin, being obedient, was made the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race.... Thus, the knot of Eve's disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. What the virgin Eve had bound in unbelief, the Virgin Mary loosed through faith."
    Against Heresies (3,22,4) (Jurgens-224)

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Tertullian wrote this between 208 and 212 A.D.:
    "For it was while Eve was still a virgin that the word of the devil crept in to erect an edifice of death. Likewise, through a Virgin, the Word of God was introduced to set up a structure of life. Thus, what had been laid waste in ruin by this sex, was by the same sex re-established in salvation. Eve had believed the serpent; Mary believed Gabriel. That which the one destroyed by believing, the other, by believing, set straight."
    The Flesh of Christ (17,5) (Jurgens-358)
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Saint Augustine wrote in 396 A.D.:
    "Our Lord Jesus Christ, however, who came to liberate mankind, in which both males and females are destined to salvation, was not averse to males, for He took the form of a male, nor to females, for of a female He was born. Besides, there is a great mystery here: that just as death comes to us through a woman, Life is born to us through a woman; that the devil, defeated, would be tormented by each nature, feminine and masculine, since he had taken delight in the defection of both."
    Christian Combat (22,24) (Jurgens-1578)


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Mary is mentioned in the first book of the Bible, and in the last book of the Bible, and in many books in between. See "The Blessed Virgin Mary in the Bible", and "O' Daughter of Zion", and many other Marian files on this website for the verses.
     
  11. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    Is Mary Divine Person ?

    Your god may be the son of a sinful woman, my God is Almighty God and the Creator of Mary.
    Mary was born as a sinner then saved by the Grace of God, because of the blood and death of Christ.

    Mary was a hell bound sinner and that's why she needed a Savior as she confessed in Luke 1:47

    Christ is the Creator and Potter, and Mary was a pot made by the Creator Jesus Christ.

    You are claiming that the pot is the mother of the Creator, which tells only a fraction of the Truth, misleading the people to revere the creature.

    Do you call a pot is the mother of the Potter ?
     
  12. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    The woman in Revelation 12 is not Mary.
    In Rev 11:19 there is no mentioning about the woman.

    In Rev 12:
    [FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica][/FONT][/FONT]
    [FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:


    [/FONT]

    [/FONT]
    2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered
    6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
    13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. 14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.


    The Woman in Rev 12 is apparently Holy Spirit who gave birth to Jesus Christ as we read in Matthew 1:20.

    Holy Spirit was in charge of Israel before the birth of Jesus Christ.

    After the ascension of Jesus Christ, the woman was on the earth until the end of the world, and 1260 days is the same period as Jesus preached the Gospel on this earth.

    Mary is sleeping now in the bosom of Abraham!

    Holy Spirit is expressed thru Church of Christ.
    Church, the body of Christ, the Bride of Christ is the expression of the Holy Spirit. The Woman is quite similar to the Church.

    The Woman disappears in the last part of the chapter 12 of Rev because there will be the Rapture, but there are some Remnant descendants of the Woman.

    The woman is not called the Mother of the man-child there.


    Your zeal for Idol worship, goddess worship misguided you quite a lot.
     
  13. mojoala

    mojoala New Member

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    You took that statement out of context. The divine person of Jesus references the word "God" immediately before.

    Well lets look at the Hole in the Road analogy:

    Suzy goes walking down the street and falls into a big Hole in the Road. Suzy can't get out. Tom comes along and rescues Suzy from the hole. Now comes Betty trotting along and is just few steps from the Hole in the Road. Tom jumps in front of her and keeps her from falling into the Hole in the Road. Both Suzy and Betty needed a Hero to save them from the Hole in the Road.

    Now replace Suzy's name with Anne(mother of Mary).
    Replace Betty with Mary. Replace Tom with Jesus and finally replace Hero with Saviour.

    God is not powerful enough to save someone from sin prior to committing sin(falling into the hole)?

    Another misunderstanding. Here is some clarification:

    Fundamentalists are sometimes horrified when the Virgin Mary is referred to as the Mother of God. However, their reaction often rests upon a misapprehension of not only what this particular title of Mary signifies but also who Jesus was, and what their own theological forebears, the Protestant Reformers, had to say regarding this doctrine.

    A woman is a man’s mother either if she carried him in her womb or if she was the woman contributing half of his genetic matter or both. Mary was the mother of Jesus in both of these senses; because she not only carried Jesus in her womb but also supplied all of the genetic matter for his human body, since it was through her—not Joseph—that Jesus "was descended from David according to the flesh" (Rom. 1:3).

    Since Mary is Jesus’ mother, it must be concluded that she is also the Mother of God: If Mary is the mother of Jesus, and if Jesus is God, then Mary is the Mother of God. There is no way out of this logical syllogism, the valid form of which has been recognized by classical logicians since before the time of Christ.

    Although Mary is the Mother of God, she is not his mother in the sense that she is older than God or the source of her Son’s divinity, for she is neither. Rather, we say that she is the Mother of God in the sense that she carried in her womb a divine person—Jesus Christ, God "in the flesh" (2 John 7, cf. John 1:14)—and in the sense that she contributed the genetic matter to the human form God took in Jesus Christ.

    To avoid this conclusion, Fundamentalists often assert that Mary did not carry God in her womb, but only carried Christ’s human nature. This assertion reinvents a heresy from the fifth century known as Nestorianism, which runs aground on the fact that a mother does not merely carry the human nature of her child in her womb. Rather, she carries the person of her child. Women do not give birth to human natures; they give birth to persons. Mary thus carried and gave birth to the person of Jesus Christ, and the person she gave birth to was God.

    The Nestorian claim that Mary did not give birth to the unified person of Jesus Christ attempts to separate Christ’s human nature from his divine nature, creating two separate and distinct persons—one divine and one human—united in a loose affiliation. It is therefore a Christological heresy, which even the Protestant Reformers recognized. Both Martin Luther and John Calvin insisted on Mary’s divine maternity. In fact, it even appears that Nestorius himself may not have believed the heresy named after him. Further, the "Nestorian" church has now signed a joint declaration on Christology with the Catholic Church and recognizes Mary’s divine maternity, just as other Christians do.

    Since denying that Mary is God’s mother implies doubt about Jesus’ divinity, it is clear why Christians (until recent times) have been unanimous in proclaiming Mary as Mother of God.

    The Church Fathers, of course, agreed, and the following passages witness to their lively recognition of the sacred truth and great gift of divine maternity that was bestowed upon Mary, the humble handmaid of the Lord.

    Summary

    Mary is mother Jesus.
    Jesus is God the Son.
    Mary is mother of God the Son.
    contracted to Mary is the mother of God.
    This in no way says she is Mother of God the Father.

    As Jesus says in John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

    Those that possess the Holy Spirit will know whereas the one of the flesh only and not of the Spirit will not know.
     
  14. mojoala

    mojoala New Member

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    The Ark of the Covenant is the prefigurement the Virgin that would carry God in her womb.

    Exodus 25:11-21 - the ark of the Old Covenant was made of the purest gold for God's Word. Mary is the ark of the New Covenant and is the purest vessel for the Word of God made flesh.

    2 Sam. 6:7 - the Ark is so holy and pure that when Uzzah touched it, the Lord slew him. This shows us that the Ark is undefiled. Mary the Ark of the New Covenant is even more immaculate and undefiled, spared by God from original sin so that she could bear His eternal Word in her womb.

    1 Chron. 13:9-10 - this is another account of Uzzah and the Ark. For God to dwell within Mary the Ark, Mary had to be conceived without sin. For Protestants to argue otherwise would be to say that God would let the finger of Satan touch His Son made flesh. This is incomprehensible.

    1 Chron. 15 and 16 - these verses show the awesome reverence the Jews had for the Ark - veneration, vestments, songs, harps, lyres, cymbals, trumpets.

    Luke 1:39 / 2 Sam. 6:2 - Luke's conspicuous comparison's between Mary and the Ark described by Samuel underscores the reality of Mary as the undefiled and immaculate Ark of the New Covenant. In these verses, Mary (the Ark) arose and went / David arose and went to the Ark. There is a clear parallel between the Ark of the Old and the Ark of the New Covenant.

    Luke 1:41 / 2 Sam. 6:16 - John the Baptist / King David leap for joy before Mary / Ark. So should we leap for joy before Mary the immaculate Ark of the Word made flesh.

    Luke 1:43 / 2 Sam. 6:9 - How can the Mother / Ark of the Lord come to me? It is a holy privilege. Our Mother wants to come to us and lead us to Jesus.

    Luke 1:56 / 2 Sam. 6:11 and 1 Chron. 13:14 - Mary / the Ark remained in the house for about three months.

    Rev 11:19 - at this point in history, the Ark of the Old Covenant was not seen for six centuries (see 2 Macc. 2:7), and now it is finally seen in heaven. The Jewish people would have been absolutely amazed at this. However, John immediately passes over this fact and describes the "woman" clothed with the sun in Rev.

    12:1. John is emphasizing that Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant and who, like the Old ark, is now worthy of veneration and praise. Also remember that Rev.

    11:19 and Rev. 12:1 are tied together because there was no chapter and verse at the time these texts were written.

    Rev 12:1 - the "woman" that John is describing is Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. Just as the moon reflects the light of the sun, so Mary, with the moon under her feet, reflects the glory of the Sun of Justice, Jesus Christ.

    Rev. 12:17 - this verse tells us that Mary's offspring are those who keep God's commandments and bear testimony to Jesus. This demonstrates, as Catholics have always believed, that Mary is the Mother of all Christians.

    Rev. 12:2 - Some Protestants argue that, because the woman had birth pangs, she was a woman with sin. However, Revelation is apocalyptic literature unique to the 1st century. It contains varied symbolism and multiple meanings of the woman (Mary, the Church and Israel). The birth pangs describe both the birth of the Church and Mary's offspring being formed in Christ. Mary had no birth pangs in delivering her only Son Jesus.

    Isaiah 66:7 - for example, we see Isaiah prophesying that before she (Mary) was in labor she gave birth; before her pain came upon her she was delivered of a son (Jesus). This is a Marian prophecy of the virgin birth of Jesus Christ.

    Gal 4:19 - Paul also describes his pain as birth pangs in forming the disciples in Christ. Birth pangs describe formation in Christ.

    Rom. 8:22 - also, Paul says the whole creation has been groaning in travail before the coming of Christ. We are all undergoing birth pangs because we are being reborn into Jesus Christ.

    Jer. 13:21 - Jeremiah describes the birth pangs of Israel, like a woman in travail. Birth pangs are usually used metaphorically in the Scriptures.

    Hos. 13:12-13 - Ephraim is also described as travailing in childbirth for his sins. Again, birth pangs are used metaphorically.

    Micah 4:9-10 - Micah also describes Jerusalem as being seized by birth pangs like a woman in travail.

    Rev. 12:13-16 - in these verses, we see that the devil still seeks to destroy the woman even after the Savior is born. This proves Mary is a danger to satan, even after the birth of Christ. This is because God has given her the power to intercede for us, and we should invoke her assistance in our spiritual lives.

    Both Arks were assumed into heaven.
     
  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    #1. No ark was assumed into heaven according to scripture.

    #2. Rev 12 (the ONE pure Woman) shows us the same picture as Rom 11 (the ONE vine) -- BOTH are shown to apply to the saints on earth - and they show ONE view of the saints that spans OT and NT!
     
  16. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    That's a laugh. Are you serious? What have you been eating/smoking?
    1. Show from Scripture that Mary is the ark of the New Covenant. She is not. That is just a vain man's imagination. (definition of philosophy)
    If Mary would have touched the ark she would have been instantly killed as well;
    "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God" (Rom.3:23). There was no exception in this verse made for Mary. She is a vile sinner like anyone else. To demonstrate her sinfulness she took a sinoffering to the priest on the day that Jesus was circumcised

    Luke 2:24 And to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons.

    Leviticus 12:3 And in the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised.
    Leviticus 12:6 And when the days of her purifying are fulfilled, for a son, or for a daughter, she shall bring a lamb of the first year for a burnt offering, and a young pigeon, or a turtledove, for a sin offering, unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, unto the priest:
    --Mary was following the law. She brought her sin offering when she brought Jesus to be circumcised, during the days of her purification. She did this becasue she knew that she was a sinner. One who is not a sinner needs no sin offering.
    Mary, nor any picture of her, is not found in the OT. This is just a vain man's imagination. God doesn't dwell withing Mary (in the OT); symbolically he dwelt within the ark. The ark represented the presence of Jehovah. It had nothing to do with Mary. Let us stick to the Word of God and not a vain man's imagination. Mary was a sinner. She had sinned.
    Yes they did have an awesome reverence--for Jehovah, not for the sinner--Mary.
    Luke states a historical fact:

    Luke 1:39 And Mary arose in those days, and went into the hill country with haste, into a city of Juda;
    --To say that this has anything to do with the Ark of 2Sam.6:2 is a vain man's imagination. It doesn't. Luke is simply stating a historical fact--where Mary went. That is plain to see for even the most simple of readers. A six year old can understand that statement. There is no parallel to the Ark. Vaiin imagination; that is all.
    Luke 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
    --The babe leaped before joy. This is before he was even recognized as John, which Zecharias finally did in verse 63. An infant inheriting a sinful nature, leaps with joy in the womb of a mother. David dances with joy in streets of Jerusalem. And you connect these two verses together. You are in need of serious Bible hermeneutics. Again: vain man's imagination. This is not rightly dividing the Word of Truth; it is blindly accepting Catholic hogwash.
    Mary is a sinner. She is not our mother. Don't disgrace us. Neither does she represent the ark of the OT. That is a vain man's imagination. You can make the Bible say anything you want if you try hard enough.
    Mary was never in the Ark. The ark represented the presence of Jehovah. Mary would have died instantly had she even touched the ark. She was a sinner and admitted it. Read Luke 2 again. She admitted that she needed a Saviour. Only sinners admit they need a Saviour.
    That woman symbolizes the nation of Israel, not Mary

    Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
    --Christ was a Jew and came from the Jews. It is speaking nationally. He will rule the nation of Israel with a rod of iron during the Millennial Kingdom.
    Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
    --The seed of the woman (Israel) is called a remnant. God promised to David that he would always, for his sake, preserve a remnant. This is during the Great Tribulation Period, where God's wrath is being poured out on the earth. It is Israel with whom Satan is angry with at this time. Yet through this Great Tribulation, God will preserve Israel, not the Catholics.
    There is no Mary here. That is a vain man's imagination. The picture is a national picture. Israel will be preserved from the wrath of the Antichrist. Read on. Read chapter 13.
    Read the context!!
    DHK
     
  17. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Isaiah 66:7-8 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
    Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.
    --It is speaking of the Millennial Kingdom which is yet to come, as every verse in Isaiah 66 is referring to. There will be no pain in child birth in the Millennial Kingdom. The curse will be lifted. Read the context of the entire chapter. It is not speaking of Mary.
    Galatians 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,
    --What has this got to do with the price of tea in China? or with Mary? Paul is fully qualified and permitted to use synonyms. :rolleyes:
    The verse has nothing to do with Mary.
    See my last remark. Do you think that every time the word "travail" is used it must refer to Mary's birth of Jesus? That is as bad as the RCC's theology that every time the word "water" is used in the NT it must refer to "baptism."
    Like I said, You can make the Bible say anything you want it to say if you try hard enough. Try looking the word up in the dictionary. It may help you.
    So in your mind, travail, must always refer to the birth pangs of Mary--a vain man's imagination.

    Revelation 12:13-16 proves that Israel is a danger to Satan, not Mary. Please explain how a dead person (Mary) is a threat to Satan.
    Now look at the situation in the Middle-East and see how Israel is a threat to Satan's purposes.
    Both arks are not in heaven. Where do you get that from?
    DHK
     
  18. mojoala

    mojoala New Member

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    Oh yes it was. It has disappeared from the earth. No one has possession of it. Unless you believe the Indiana Jones story.

    Revelations 11:19 says your a liar:

    19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven: and the ark of his testament was seen in his temple, and there were lightnings, and voices, and an earthquake, and great hail.

    As for Revelations 12 and Romans 11, that makes no sense what so ever.

    Immediate after Rev 11:19 is Rev 12:1. One flows into the other.

    1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

    This chapter has dual meanings. 1. the woman is Israel. 2. the woman is Mary.

    6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

    This also Mary, Joseph's and baby Jesus fleeing to Egypt.

    14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

    And this is also the assumption into heaven, carried off by angels.
     
  19. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Is it your claim that anything you did not find yesterday "disappeared from the earth"??

    What do you do about the things we find tomorrow??

    Did they "come back to earth" then?


    Heb 8:1-3 says you do not have a clue about the Bible. In Heb 8 we are told that the earthly "things" where merely a "copy" of the true sanctuary and items that exist in heaven.

    You are claiming that "there can be no copies".

    Your idea failed in Heb 8:1-4.


    BOTH chapters deal with ONE symbol that stands for the church IN BOTH OT and NT.

    Romans 11 has both Jews and Gentiles grafted into the SAME VINE - in both OT and NT.

    Rev 12 shows BOTH the OT and NT church of the saints as "a pure woman".

    This just isn't that hard.

    Mary is never mentioned in Rev.

    Mary is never called "Holy Mother" by ANYONE in the NT

    Mary is never prayed to in ALL of the NT - not even by John.

    Mary is never called "SINLESS" in the NT NOR are there any references to ANY altars built to Mary.

    You get the point.
     
  20. mojoala

    mojoala New Member

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    Yes she is. Revelations 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
    2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
    3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
    4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
    5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

    Mary is symbolically represented as the "WOMAN".

    But if you want to get technical about Revelations, then lets.

    The Roman Catholic Church is not mentioned in Revelations, but the Occult known as Seventh Day Adventist symbolically say that the "Whore of Babylon" is the RCC.
     
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