Masters Divinity School

El,

Interesting post.

I agree with you. For example, in NCT's case, he is a bi-vocational pastor. I commend him for even working on another "educational" program. In his cirlces, what he is doing is a huge step up. So from his perspective and circumstances, he is doing a lot to continue to improve his skills in ministry.

Should that be denigrated? I think not.

I agree that we should do our best for God. But I will vent with you. Anyone who puts in 90 credits should be close to earning a Ph.D. I simply do not agree with the seminary route to earning a Ph.D. I like the BJU program. Put in 90 hours and walk out with a Ph.D. There should be programs just like BJU's in the seminaries.

If you earn an undergraduate Bible degree, the seminaries should have a three year Ph.D. program designed just for that situation!

 

I wholeheartedly agree.

 

PS - let's start a seminary that meets that need.

 

===

I think my point is missed;I did not say Izzy's could do no good.. I said, it was a sham to call it the same BA or BS degree as Georgia Tech gives.

I did NOT say one could NOT minister with a MDS training!!


Yes, everyone must do his/her best.. BUT if that best is MDS, the calling that work doctoral has NOTHING to do with being able to minister. Who needs to be called DOCTOR to minister?"?

My point is missed!! I was not raising the bar for ministry but for doctoral work!!!

My issue is NOT what does it take to serve, my issue is what should it take to earn a doctoral degree!!

 

Point well taken.

But would you agree that a B.A. in Bible with Greek and/or Hebrew should allow someone to enter a M.A/Ph.D program in the seminaries, like BJU offers?

If you don't, then you are discrediting a four year undergraduate degree with a major in Bible! He should be advanced, and not just the measely one semester most seminaries offer. What an insult!

 

While Rhet's points are well taken, and this can of worms has been examined in the past, I take the position that if one has a BA in Bible or Theology, then an MA should be sufficient to enter a PhD program.

My reasoning is this: the MDiv, which used to be a BD, was established for students to gain ministerial training without having a bachelor's degree in an area of religion. As such, for those whose undergrad degrees are in non-religion areas (mine is secondary education), the 90 or so hour MDiv is appropriate.

For those, such as my son in law, who hold, say, a BA in Bible (his is from Boyce), the MDiv requires the retaking of many of the same courses which he has already taken. Sure, the requirements may be ratcheted up a bit, but the information is the same. The MA, as Bob Jones and Wheaton offer, should serve as the appropriate prerequisite degree for the PhD.

In the not-so-distant past, a minister with an MA was considered highly educated. I wonder, sometimes, if the attitude of "I had to go this route, so you should also" influences our thinking.

Blessings to all,
Bill

 

If I read the Rhetoritician correctly, I would agree that an MA should suffice for a secular PhD, even in Religion. And I agree that the MDiv should be a better preperation for a Seminary PhD. And that would be more in line with my feelings that experience should be a part of ministerial doctoral work (DMin).

 

And I gotta agree with Bill if I read this correctly.

 

Robert

The master's degree is becoming the High School diploma of today -

Seriously, you should be able to move into a DMin an MDiv equivalent. If you have the right 'courses' and the experience it should not be a problem. Of course, an equivalent might still be difficult.

My favorite seminary for the day: http://nobts.edu/ProDoc/DMin/Default.html#FAQ8

 

PS

Find out where you want to get the D Min - then get them to send you a 'letter' indicating what background courses you need to move on for your 'equivelancy.' Do the time and move on to your D Min.

Wayne

 

What do you know, I agree with everybody!

Seriously, the M.Div. is a professional degree. And the D.Min. is based on that degree.

The graduate school route is preferable for those with a B.A. in Bible.

IMO.

I think the seminaries should offer a M.Div./Ph.D. program for non Bible majors.

I think they should also offer a M.A./Ph.D for those with undergrad B.A. degrees in Bible.

Then maybe more students would study Bible in an undergrad program.

As it stands now, the seminaries are not affirming B.A. degrees in Bible. Why is that?

 

==

Yes! (as I understand you)

Rhet, I respectfully disagree...I think.

IMO a good MDiv should be required, or the equivalent as a M.Min with some courses, plus successful ministerial experience, for entering a D Min.

BUT, just as in many examples of secular grad programs, IMO a BA in Bible should qualify one to enter a MA in Bible.

And IMO a solid (especially a 2 yr as Western's masters in Exegetical Theology) ) MA in Bible should qualify one to enter a PhD-- IF the PhD includes two more years of coursework plus a dissertation.

[I don't think as in the UK Research only model it is very likely that an MA with no further coursework is sufficient preparation to do a dissertation. Maybe I was just a big stupid, but I could not have written my dissertaqtion directly after my Point Loma Univ MA.]

The three year MDiv with its 60 or so sem units of Bible, Theology, Languages. Church History , plus the one year ThM (mine took two as, like tent maker, I worked full time--as a public school teacher, and was an interim pastor) of about 30 sem units including a research thesis totals about 90 sem units in one area!

This seems over-kill as required by The Master's Seminary to enter a ThD and Dallas to enter a PhD.

IMO 60 grad units ought to suffice!

One should be able to get a PhD or ThD in Bible or Theology to teach WITHOUT having to be trained in how to pastor, IMO!

That PhD/ThD might do well to include a couple of courses on HOW to teach.

BTW, my BA IS in Bible as is my 5th year ThB, but I did 45 addl under grad and grad sem units at USD to get my first teaching credential in '69.

I went (in Bible) BA, ThB, MA, MDiv (equiv), ThM

 

Gotta disagree - the primary degree for seminaries is the MDiv. Unless, we are saying that seminaries are training 50,000 plus professors - the purpose is to train for ministry. Those that train ministers should have experience. IMHO - the majority of them should have served as Pastors.

Here! Here!

A couple? Probably 18 hours would be a good start.

 

That's almost half the Ph.D! You'd have to change it to an Ed.D. if you had 18 hours of educational classes!

 

Following that reasoning, then my 90+ graduate hours should be changed from an MDiv to a PhD . . .

I like you more and more.

Dr. Wayne. Thank you! Is it accredited?

 

UZThD

If I am a 'Doctor', would you want that to be an acredited degree? I would think you might. Is not accredidation submitting to a set of expectations?

When I was being taught ministry, I (and I hope there were others) really wanted to be taught by those that are 'ministers' IMHO. I still learned from the academic types, but they were not what I expected.

Since the primary teaching purpose of seminaries is the production of educated personnel for the ministry, I would expect that the personnel teaching would WANT to be ministers. A lack of that desire is to me, odd.

I would think that ministry is a standard that students should be able to expect from their professors in a seminary. It is 'expected' of the students. What was expected of the professors when they were students? How did a group of professors get through seminary without spiritual disciplines and ministry (interneship) as a 'requirement'?

I just expect the leaders that I follow will set the example. If a professor expects me to follow him in ministry, then he should be in ministry. IMHO.

Wayne