Masters of Arts in Religion

Martin, Good point! But I do not have any intention on follow-on seminary education. God willing. Thanks for your insight.

Rhetorician, I"d think one could "cut it straight" by reading/studying a KJV bible or another literal translation (NASB or NKJV). raying:

 

Brother Randall

There is only one literal . . . and that is the original languages . . . just because I believe that men like yourself should be afforded the best education that they can afford and study at, does not mean that I am 'anti-education'.



God bless

Wayne

 

Since, I now know what El_Guero thinks, :thumbsup: what about you, Rhetorician? Are you staying in this hand, or folding? Bitsy? You still in this hand, as well?? :laugh: The one where the Seminary is headed by someone of, shall we say, playing nice, less than stellar Academic background and/or credentials??

Ed

 

MDiv vs. MAR

I agree that the MDiv should require Hebrew and Greek. Once a standard is set it is good to maintain it.

There are ample opportunities for English Track Master Degrees in Biblical Literature and they were designed for that purpose.

Gordon

 

Well, it looks like everyone else 'folded', although El_Guero stayed in for one more round, so I guess I win this hand by default. Oh yeah, I did speak of a couple of seminaries, if my memory does not fail me, here. And said something about them being headed by someone whose degrees were maybe a bit less than usual, or something like that. I'd think that some of you might have heard of 'em. The second of the two, the one where one President's only 'earned degree', was an M.A., is the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, KY. Dr. John A. Broadus, who was one of the four Founding Professors (New Testament and Homiletics) all the way back in 1859, and subsequently taught there 36 years until his own death, only received an M.A. from the University of VA after four years of intense study. There is no record, of which I'm aware, that he ever 'earned' a Bachelor's degree along the way. Yet he would come to be known as the most famous graduate of U. VA. (And his insight and abilities in Greek and the N.T. would remmain unequalled until his own son-in-law, and successor as Professor of N.T., Dr. A. T. Robertson would meet and then surpass Broadus by around the turn of the century. Between them, they held the Professor of NT for 75 years.) After nearly 30 years teaching at Southern, he (Broadus) became President upon the death of his longtime closest friend, and Seminary co-founder, Dr. James P. Boyce, in 1888, and was President until his own death in 1895. Ever hear of Southern? Is and/or was a fair- to-middlin' place? Yes to both questions?? Somehow, I thought so. :thumbsup:

The first institution I mentioned, you may have heard of, as well. You know, the one where the founder did not even finish his B.A.? That individual would be Dr. B. H. Carroll, who, although still a couple of months shy of completing his classroom work at Waco Univ. (Later, it merged with Baylor.), 'dropped out' to enter the Confederate Army in 1861, where he would serve (Waco conferred the B.A. on him during this time.) until 1865. He became a pastor and after 30 years, became the head of the Bible Department, then dean of Baylor Seminary, before it was incorporated into a new Seminary, under his leadership, as Founding President. Oh yeah! That Seminary?? It's the Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Ft. Worth, TX, which would become and for many years has been the largest Seminary (of any flavor) in the world and only recently roughly equalled by Fuller, which is a topic for another thread and forum. You've heard of it, as well? Do tell!

Ed

P.S. Just FTR, neither Carroll nor Broadus ever went to any Seminary. Does anyone here truly think that, given their academic backgrounds and resumes, that either Broadus or Carroll could possibly get 'hired' today, even as a Lecturer or an Instructor, let alone as a Professor, at the institutions they once headed? Frankly, I don't!

 

We were playing poker and I didn't know it? Drat! Where did I put my cards?

 

You know, I never want to discount that people may have the desire to learn and may become extremely learned without benefit of professor or degree. AND conversely we more than a few educated nitwits today. The men Ed mentioned helped to set a standard. They had foresight in the field of religious education. I am so grateful for their leadership.

Now, this thread has made me think about the huge number of degrees offered today -- in every field. You don't have to get a PhD, get a DBA or an EEd or dozens of others. All the types with their various requirements has helped muddy the water on what any degree-type means/is/requires. It figures that our seminaries would follow suit. I like the variety, but I like the comfort of knowing what a specific degree really is.

 

What's the value of a degree?

Well folks, you know my opinion. I'm skeptical of degrees because I've known too many ignoramuses with impeccable degrees. I’ve known engineers and even math teachers who forgot all the calculus that they supposedly learned in college. I’ve known pastors and teachers who possess almost no skill in Greek or Hebrew although they studied it in seminary. I know many degreed and certified teachers who can’t teach. Best of all, I remember my former boss and graduate school professor, who is now the department head in a major grad school, and his inability to solve my P-chem problems although his field was physical biochemistry.

IMHO, a degree is not necessarily a mark of scholarship, intelligence, or competence. I know of accredited colleges with open admission policies that award degrees because they must keep up their graduation percentages. This is table talk among college presidents and educators.

Also, it is an open secret that we are “dumbing down” our curricula because of slack admission policies. Yet, low admissions thresholds are necessary because there are not enough qualified applicants. Furthermore, my employer friends rant and rave about the imbecility and incompetence of entry level employees with degrees and good grades.

In the past quarter century, there has been no area watered down more than religion. There appears to be less public interest in quality in this area than over disciplines because secular man doesn’t put any confidence in religion anyway. After all, they see it as superstition and the details really don’t matter. The sad part is how lightly believers view quality in an area that matters most to them.

The proliferation of substandard schools and degree mills has weakened the scholarship and standards in religious training. Also, the dilution of the curricula with methods courses has lowered the standards. The philosophy behind seminary training at one time was to give the tools for Biblical exegesis and study. Now, the emphasis appears to be on “how to do it”—a cookbook approach. This accounts for the non-language M.Div.’s and even some D.Min.’s. IMHO, it is the Greek/Hebrew requirement that gives the rigor to the seminary curriculum as well as giving essential tools for lifelong study and learning in the Scriptures.

I have little faith in degrees. I rather know what you can do rather than the degrees you hold. The learner holds great responsibility for his own learning. Most students want the easiest path to a degree. Thus, they take the non-language route. This is wrong-headed thinking about education and degrees (education and degrees are not synonymous). Learning, rather than the degree, should be the student’s goal. Also, learning is a lifelong process that is not necessarily confined to the classroom. There are people who became competent scholars (e.g. Wilbur M. Smith) without the classroom experience. My challenge is for people to become learners. Many have learned Greek and Hebrew by their own study.

 

Language methods

IMHO, Greek and Hebrew are made harder by professors who insist on learning the languages by rote. I prefer an approach, such as Mounce's, similar to learning modern languages. One learns Greek/Hebrew faster and retains them longer by translation and use rather than intensive memorization and descriptive grammar.

BTW, I know a little Greek and a little Hebrew; one runs a restuarant and the other operates a clothing store. (I'm afraid this joke is little too outdated and culturally obscure to be funny except for some of the older guys here. So, beware least too many laughing faces will reveal your antiquity.) :laugh: