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Featured Matt 18 and Matt 6 Disprove OSAS

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by BobRyan, Dec 6, 2013.

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  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Indeed. this text does not start with a man who owes the king a lot of money but is very forgiving of others - so then the king forgives him.

    If you read the details it starts with a man who owes much and the only thing that recommends him to the king is his great debt, desperate and pitiful. The king has pity on him. The text does NOT say - that because as a debtor he was going around forgiving others so finally the king decided to forgive him.

    I think we both see that in the details..

    Matt 18
    23 Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 And when he had begun to settle accounts, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. 25 But as he was not able to pay, his master commanded that he be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and that payment be made. 26 The servant therefore fell down before him, saying, ‘Master, have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 27 Then the master of that servant was moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt.


    The scenario begins with the servant - fully forgiven after pleading with the king. Not "after going around forgiving others while in great debt to the king" .

    I think we both see this point clearly.

    Matt 18 is another place where "forgiveness revoked" is a subject of the Bible - often ignored by those clinging to man-made-tradition over the Word of God.

    [FONT=&quot]32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.'' [/FONT]


    Matt 6

    12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
    13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
    14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

    15 But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.

    ---


    Here is the detail you keep skipping past as if it is not in your Bible.


    [FONT=&quot]33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'


    in Christ,

    Bob
    [/FONT]
     
    #41 BobRyan, Dec 6, 2013
  2. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Winman -

    Each time refer to this detail in the actual text you say it makes no sense.



    [FONT=&quot]33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'[/FONT]
     
    #42 BobRyan, Dec 6, 2013
  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    OldRegular insists that we talk about the promise to the faithful sheep of John 10 on this thread about problem of "forgiveness revoked" for the fully forgiven people of God in Matt 18 and Matt 6.

    Originally Posted by OldRegular [​IMG]
    John 10:22-29;
    24. Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
    25. Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me.
    26. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
    27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:




    That is true. It is not my Matt 18 and Matt 6 and it is not your John 10.

    I should not have said that.

    Did you have a point to make from Matt 18 or Matt 6 ... or John 10?

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #43 BobRyan, Dec 6, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 6, 2013
  4. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Bob, it is a ridiculous argument and you know it. Originally, forgiveness is not a condition to being forgiven, but once you are forgiven then forgiveness immediately becomes a condition to be saved?? That is a contradiction and you know it.

    Now, If you could fool God or deceive him, it would work, but that is not how God is in reality. God knows our hearts and so would not forgive a man until he forgives his neighbors.

    Give it up, don't be stubborn.
     
    #44 Winman, Dec 6, 2013
  5. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Jude 7 calls it the "Punishment of eternal fire" -- the "punishment of everlasting fire".

    Is 53 says that Christ took the "stripes for us to whom the stroke was DUE".

    Luke 12:45-47 says the wicked who know much about the master's will "receive many lashes" and the one who knew little "few".

    In any case - you have no text saying that the wages of sin is heaven and some inconvenient "payment" before heaven -- as IF all of us could take back our sin debt from Christ and pay it all ourselves and still go to heaven.

    Unless you are Mormon - and I think you are not -- you cannot even believe such nonsense.

    Which means you are not taking your own argument seriously when it comes to Matt 18 and Matt 6.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #45 BobRyan, Dec 6, 2013
  6. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    That is a blatant and disgusting lie, Ryan! In my post #36 I presented the following in response to your post #26:

    Are you without chastening when you lie?
     
    #46 OldRegular, Dec 6, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 6, 2013
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Each time refer to this detail in the actual text you say it makes no sense.

    [FONT=&quot]33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'[/FONT]

    It is pretty hard to believe that reaction to the text.


    My guess is that even you yourself admit to that much.

    Even you yourself admit that God is not waiting for the lost to exhibit such saintly behavior before they are forgiven. They are not first "born again new creation - regenerated saints" and THEN get forgiveness - I think we Both are on board with that.

    And we BOTH just saw 'the detail" in Matt 18 where the only thing the servant did to get forgiveness was plead for mercy.

    This is not the hard part.


    How do you read the text without discarding scripture?

    [FONT=&quot]33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'[/FONT]




    There is no part of Matt 18 that says that the unforgiving servant fooled the king in order to get forgiveness. All he did was plead for mercy to get forgiven.

    Turns out - that is all the lost can do. This detail is easy for all to see. Nothing confusing here.


    No part of Matt 18 says "I did not forgive you your debt until you first forgave others". Matt 18 never says in your unforgiven state - I expect you to forgive others though you have no basis for doing it.

    Not text says "Forgive others just as God has NOT forgiven you".

    --- and we BOTH know it.

    Not sure why you keep circling back to that idea as if we had read it in the text.

    it was never there.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #47 BobRyan, Dec 6, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 6, 2013
  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    I should have said something more like "OldRegular insists that we talk about the faithful sheep of John 10 on this thread about forgiveness revoked in Matt 18 and Matt 6.:
     
    #48 BobRyan, Dec 6, 2013
  9. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Bob, your argument is nonsensical and contradictory. Forgiving your neighbors is either a condition of salvation or it is not.

    It is illogical to argue that forgiving your neighbors is not a condition to get saved, but it is a condition to stay saved.

    I am not going to keep arguing with you, this view of yours makes no sense at all.
     
    #49 Winman, Dec 6, 2013
  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    You are trying to make a philosophical argument while ignoring the actual details in the text of Matt 18 and Matt 6.

    It is hard to believe that you believe that the lost must not forgive as they have been forgiven - but rather must forgive even though they are NOT forgiven -- no matter what the text says to the contrary.

    The text keeps making the opposite case that you are making. It says that only the fully forgiven are to forgive 'just as they were forgiven" -- and if you think about it - that is the only way anyone can "Forgive just as they were forgiven".

    The unforgiven lost person has no possibility of "Forgiving just as they were forgiven" because they are lost - -and not forgiven.

    it does not get any easier than that.

    Simple question --


    How do you read the text without discarding scripture?

    [FONT=&quot]33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'[/FONT]
     
    #50 BobRyan, Dec 6, 2013
  11. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Why I am continuing to argue with you I don't know, but you seem oblivious to how contradictory your argument is.

    You believe a person does not have to forgive their neighbors to be saved, but the second they are saved, they have to forgive their neighbors to be saved.

    Now which is it? Do you have to forgive your neighbors to be forgiven or not?

    You are trying to have it both ways, that is a contradiction.

    Now that's my final argument. I already know you will ignore it. We will have to agree to disagree.
     
    #51 Winman, Dec 6, 2013
  12. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    And so do you if I am not mistaken.

    That is how the lost come to Christ - not as holy saints - but as the unforgiven lost.


    Why do you keep posting that as if we do not agree on that point?

    it is here were you seem to claim that I am the author of Matt 18 and that this is totally contrary to the first statement above about how a lost person comes to Christ.

    Why do you keep doing that ??

    Your argument is that I should not pay any attention to the Bible details in Matt 18 if I want a certain view of salvation that is consistent with OSAS to be true.

    i could choose to be Presbyterian or Catholic - and it would not change the text or make me the author of it.

    i am asking you one simple really easy question from the actual details of the text. (and you are being very careful not to answer it.)


    How do you read the text without discarding scripture?

    [FONT=&quot]33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'[/FONT]



    i claim that the guy in jail who is not pardoned and on his way to the "chair" -- is not "expected" to be grateful or forgiving of others based on the treatment he is getting. But the one who IS pardoned IS expected to be grateful and act accordingly.

    This is incredibly obvious. Probably to both of us.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #52 BobRyan, Dec 6, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 6, 2013
  13. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Here is the bases of all of Bob's arguments...

    Obedience to the Law cannot save a person, but a person must obey the Law to stay saved.

    When the foundation is flawed, there can be no sound structure built there upon. It will all be contradictory. Bob cannot see his folly, the question is, what or whom has blinded him??
     
    #53 steaver, Dec 6, 2013
  14. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Ok so no focus on Bible details in that post.

    How about this easy question?


    How do you get OSAS to survive this "detail" without discarding scripture?

    [FONT=&quot]33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'[/FONT]


    Do you consider the 'detail' of forgiveness of sin important enough to focus on that subject?

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #54 BobRyan, Dec 6, 2013
  15. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    This is the "teaching" that you are putting forth from this parable that is nowhere found in Scripture.

    The teaching revolves around forgiveness. "If you don't forgive your brother..."
    Thus if "your brother" whoever that may be, has offended you in some way (as what happened with Peter) you need to forgive him. Right?
    Has anyone ever offended you to the point where you became angry at them?
    Have you ever held a grudge?
    lost your temper?
    called someone a name or misrepresented their character, because they provoked you?
    reacted in any ungodly way to another for any reason at all?

    Have any of the above taken place and still remain unresolved. That is you have not sought forgiveness from the person offended.
    If so, then according to your "forgiveness revoked" theory, you are a lost man, correct?
    If applicable to you, you would have to go that person and ask forgiveness in order to get saved again, correct?
    What happens if the person in question had just died last week? Are you forever doomed?

    But the real question is: You have made "forgiveness" a prerequisite for salvation, and all because of a parable.
    Nowhere does the Bible teach: If you shall forgive you shall be saved.
    This is a strange doctrine, entirely foreign to the Bible. You have deduced it from a parable, but parables don't teach doctrine, they illustrate doctrine already taught. Therefore we know this is false doctrine.

    Nowhere does the Bible demand forgiveness as a requirement for salvation, that is, "Forgive and thou shalt be saved." That is not the teaching of the Bible!
     
    #55 DHK, Dec 7, 2013
  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    You post this question from me ---

    How about this easy question?


    How do you get OSAS to survive this "detail" without discarding scripture?

    [FONT=&quot]33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'[/FONT]


    Do you consider the 'detail' of forgiveness of sin important enough to focus on that subject?
    ================================

    A really easy question to address.

    And then come up with no answer showing that OSAS survives "the Bible details" of even two easy texts???

    wow.

    you make this comment ": You have made "forgiveness" a prerequisite for salvation"

    As if it "makes sense" to claim that the one who is "fully forgiven" is not saved.

    Do you have a Bible teaching about 'fully forgiven lost people"?? I don't. If you had such a text now is the time to mention it.

    again.


    How do you get OSAS to survive this "detail" without discarding scripture?

    [FONT=&quot]33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'[/FONT]

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #56 BobRyan, Dec 7, 2013
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    A recent post attempted to address the "Bible details" by blaming me for their existence.

    The problem for OSAS is that a fully forgiven person should ever experience "forgiveness revoked".

    This is why I keep bringing these two texts up -- as follows.

    ===================

    Matt 18 is another place where "forgiveness revoked" is a subject of the Bible - often ignored by those clinging to man-made-tradition over the Word of God.

    [FONT=&quot]32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.'' [/FONT]


    Matt 6

    12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
    13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
    14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

    15 But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.

    Notice that the SAME point is made in BOTH Matt 18:35 AND in Matt 6:15... Hint: This is NO exaggeration!

    You cannot use the straw-rule of the form "anything Christ says that contradicts the man-made tradition of OSAS must be cast down to the level of "mere exaggeration"." as if it were Bible exegesis.


    Indeed once again Christ is speaking to the "fully forgiven" in the case of the Lord's Prayer and the same message is given.

    [FONT=&quot]32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'[/FONT]


    Matt 6
    15 But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.

    So again the simple question -- does OSAS survive this "Bible detail"??



    Again the nonsense as if the Bible details that OSAS needs to duck are "Bob's fault"

    Good pulpit-pounding - but as usual no Bible to support this duck of the Bible details.

    Your statement is true of what OSAS 'NEEDS" not to be in the Bible. The problem is with what IS in the Bible that OSAS "NEEDS" to NOT be in the Bible.




    Simple question for those willing to test the doctrine "sola scriptura" (which as in the dark ages - will not be "everyone").

    does OSAS survive these "Bible details"?? Or is your solution to "continue to ignore the Bible on these details"??

    [FONT=&quot]32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'[/FONT]


    Matt 6
    15 But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.

    So again the simple question -- does OSAS survive these "Bible details"??
     
    #57 BobRyan, Dec 7, 2013
  18. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Obviously it does Bob. Your too blind to see it.
    Look at the facts of the case.
    1. The context in both cases: Jesus was speaking to his disciples (and in one case especially Peter).
    2. Judas Iscariot is omitted by the mere fact that he was prophesied to be the son of perdition. He was lost then, never was saved.
    3. All the others were saved. They never lost their salvation. Their sins were all forgiven then, throughout their lives in the Book of Acts, and they are all in heaven now.
    4. Jesus was not holding a thread of revoking that initial forgiveness or salvation above their heads. They themselves testified that they served him out of love, not fear. That disqualifies your teaching. They were not fearful of having "their forgiveness revoked." There is no such doctrine.
    5. They were eternally forgiven, not one of them was lost, and could have been lost. Jesus promised that in John 10:27-30; 5:24, and especially in His Great High Priestly prayer to the Father, where he specifically said that "I have lost none of them."
    6. You have all of history against you. All the apostles died as martyrs for Christ, except for John who was exiled on Patmos where he wrote the Book of Revelation.

    Furthermore you are teaching doctrine from parables, something that is hermeneutically wrong--wrongly dividing the word of truth. That is exactly what cults do when they form strange doctrines.
     
    #58 DHK, Dec 7, 2013
  19. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    You never answered the question Bob.
    If you lose your salvation, how do you get it back again?
    According to your doctrine you must ask forgiveness (again).
    Thus you have made forgiveness a prerequisite for salvation. But it isn't.
     
    #59 DHK, Dec 7, 2013
  20. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Simple question for those willing to test the doctrine "sola scriptura" (which as in the dark ages - will not be "everyone").

    HOW does OSAS survive these "Bible details"?? Or is your solution to "continue to ignore the Bible on these details"??

    [FONT=&quot]32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'[/FONT]


    Matt 6
    15 But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.

    So again the simple question -- does OSAS survive these "Bible details"??

    And your "Bible proof" applying the "details IN the TEXT"??


    HOW does OSAS survive these "Bible details"?? Or is your solution to "continue to ignore the Bible on these details"??

    [FONT=&quot]32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'[/FONT]

    Not a single detail in vs 32-35 in your response - zero effort to show that OSAS survives "the details" of Matt 18 except to "avoid the ones that debunk OSAS".

    How "instructive".



    Hint: Matt 18:35 is obviously OUTSIDE of parable - so also the text from Matt 6.

    If you are trying to find a way ignore the teaching of Christ in defense of OSAS - that is not the solution.

    BOTH Matt 18 and Matt 6 apply this Bible doctrine Outside of PARABLE.

    Matt 18 is another place where "forgiveness revoked" is a subject of the Bible - often ignored by those clinging to man-made-tradition over the Word of God.

    [FONT=&quot]32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.'' [/FONT]


    Matt 6

    12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
    13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
    14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

    15 But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.

    Notice that the SAME point is made in BOTH Matt 18:35 AND in Matt 6:15... Hint: This is NO exaggeration!

    You cannot use the straw-rule of the form "anything Christ says that contradicts the man-made tradition of OSAS must be cast down to the level of "mere exaggeration"." as if it were Bible exegesis.




    Indeed once again Christ is speaking to the "fully forgiven" in the case of the Lord's Prayer and the same message is given.

    [FONT=&quot]32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'[/FONT]

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #60 BobRyan, Dec 7, 2013
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