Matt Shepard v Jesse Dirkhising

Celebrating the demise of any man?

Is that love?

Very creepy.

My trips to the local Wal-Mart just to get what I need are enough for me to deal with at this time.

Dave

 

I agree, Dr. Bob, 100%. "Tolerance" is shoved down our throats on a continual basis, but it is no longer just tolerance. The Gay lifestyle has been forced upon the American people, whether we agree with it or not.

I do not advocate hate crime. Both instances sited were mindless and obscene. I do advocate that we as Americans should have the right to say we will not accept or tolerate anything that we find immoral and filthy. Unfortunately, our law makers haven't given us that priveledge.

In Christ,
Trotter

 

I agree, Dr. Bob. Those stories are terribly tragic.

I think, however, that the most tragic statement in your post was the following:

"Everyone knows the general details. Shepard was a sodomite whore, seeking new partners daily, and made an obscene pass at a clean-cut young man whom Shepard thought was gay. This man got irate and later he and his friend lured Shepard out, beat him and murdered him."

I'm sure that you meant the term 'sodomite whore' in its most academic sense.

Today, tomorrow, or months from now a gay person could enter baptistboard.com desperately searching for the truth, for love, for something...anything real to fill the void in their soul that aches for fulfillment. Are they going to see Christ's love reflected in your words?

Dr. Bob, God loves Matthew Shepard 100% as much as he loves you, me or anyone else. Nowhere in scripture are you called to approve of homosexuality. Nowhere are you urged to approve of the actions of any person when you believe them to be sin. But Christ Himself taught that the second greatest commandment was to love your neighbour as yourself, that is undeniably clear. You can cry the decree 'love the sinner and hate the sin' all you want, and it is crystal clear that you 'hate the sin.' Loving the sinner is another thing entirely and somehow I don't think that third grade playground name calling is the optimal way of showing that love.

God loves homosexuals unconditionally. Jesus Christ is the answer for the pain, shame, and suffering that gay people deal with on a daily basis. And the very people most qualified to share that love with them - today's Christians - are largely so caught up in 'hating the sin' that countless numbers of them will never experience the love that we all take for granted.

Tragic.

 

Wow...

Great first post.

 

AMEN, SimplyBee!

Ruth

 

Simplybee said

Chapter and verse please.

Try Psalms 5:5

 

I will have to agree with Dr. Bob on this one. Shepherd was a sodomite; he was seeking out partners. Gee, if the shoe fits, wear it.

Part of the effect that the sodomite agenda is having is that it is causing Christians to shy away from calling sodomy a perverted sin.

 

dr.bob i looked at a site that was posted in response to the phelps and mathew shepard ordeal. one extreme to the other, it is a baptist watch site, a liberal site that has a response to the phelps guy. http://www.baptistwatch.org/main.html

the only problem is two evils do not make the truth, this site also has spongs comments to jerry falwell and other spong remarks.
anyway there you have it, spong phelps and falwell
take your pick

 

Of course, the difference between the two cases, as I see it anyway, is that there are no gay groups erecting monuments celebrating the day the kid from Arkansas was murdered. Unless I missed it of course. Then again, the constant focus on Phelps is very obvious to paint all Christians as hateful-crazy lunatics. Then again, I have not really seen a lot of national coverage of this story outside of the Baptist Board. I wonder why we here at the Baptist Board are giving Phelps this kind of exposure.

Joseph Botwinick

 

Hi, SimplyBee. A question for you, if you don't mind:

When would you have told Matthew Shepherd that God didn't like what he was doing?

 

Regarding Shepard:
So, Dr. Bob, are you saying that if one is acting in a sinful lifestyle (having an affair for instance) and they end up getting killed because of it, that's OK and we should call them whores on their way out of this life?

Because that is all I could pick out of your posting.

Are all weak Christians along with the unsaved who are murdered, to be called names and ridiculed by the Church?

Jesus help us!!


As to Jesse Dirkhising's killers, Gay had as much to do with it as killers who are heterosexual and kill with as much evil. You seem to be saying that because these men were Gay, that would do such acts.

 

SimplyBee made no such implication that we should stop "hating the sin". I think the point was that, given the phrase, "Love the sinner, hate the sin", we Christians are often very quick to do the latter and reluctant to do the former. I know I've been guilty of that myself a bit recently, and I've been praying for God to show me the wisdom to apply both parts of this message equally.

 

I'm just thinking out loud and looking for the high ground in the midst of such a confusing and disturbing thread.

IMhO, Love does not degrade any man, no matter what he is guilty of before his creator. Love does not even degrade our enemy though he has done an injustice to us. On the contrary, love seeks good for an enemy and speaks well of him even behind his back or even at his grave or memorial site. If there is nothing good to say, then I say nothing nor do I have to agree with anyone. At any rate, I do not speak evil of him ever.

I wonder, that if starting with our words we can forgive sinners, then they might see that we ourselves know that we are a forgiven people and truly worship a forgiving God. If our words are contrary to forgiveness then we hide the truth that God is indeed a forgiving God. It seems like that is opposite of the Gospel or "Good News".

I tend to think, that to be like my Father is for me to have more grace where there is more sin.

I perceive that God makes the believer righteous only through the Lamb that he sent. That means we have right standing or that we are OK with God. If I believe that, then I should be able to practice such a thing before men. I may not be able to make a sinner righteous, but I can surely treat him like is has right standing with me. All while I continue to live holy and stop sinning myself. If I had the ability to make a sinner feel like he had right standing with me, then I would be a true reflection of my Father in heaven.

Love never fails and can win those that are lost.

Dave.

 

Postit, I understand Dr. Bob's frustration and I have friends who live in Laramie and I can tell you that the townspeople were pretty upset about how the press slanted the storiy after the incident happened. Mathew Shepherd was no hero. He was a victim of a violent crime but his lifestyle was the predominant contributor to his demise. Mathew's case was dogpiled by every gay/lez group because they desperately needed a poster boy for their cause. And, as usual, the pro-gay/lez press slanted the story to benefit their "favorite sons" and were supported by the "compassionate liberal" politicians.

Only 1 news source that I can recall made an effort to investigate and reveal some of the less savory aspects of Mathew's life.

Here are some facts about the story that I heard from my friends who were students at UW at the time of the incident:

1. Official press version:
Mathew Shepard was the victim of a henious hate crime and murdered solely because he was gay.

Reality:
Before political pressure was applied, local and federal investigators had pretty much ruled Shephards death as a "crime of opportunity". Mathew's murderers were known thugs and had previous criminal records. Furthermore, they previously hadn't discriminated in who they targeted. Yes Shephards sexual orintation probably played a part in the ordeal, seeing how he propostitioned at least one of the murderers, but in general, murder in any form is a "hate crime". Mathew's murderers wern't just cruising town looking for "queers" to accost, they were probably cruising town looking for any victim.

2. Slant:
Mathew Shepard was a innocent soul, loved by all and only a meek and poor victim.

Reality:
Men (and by men I am referring to both gay and straight) at the University of Wyoming knew well enough to give Mathew a wide berth. Mathew was a "sexual predator" and had "groped" many guys who were not wary of his ways. My friends say that it is quite odd for any one student, other than a major athelete, etc.., to gain notoriety among the townspeople but due to his lifestyle - Shepard apparently had. He was well known as a "major league flamer", and rumor had it that he had actually went so far to intimidate some males attending the school with his mannerisms. Most of this is heresay as none of the alleged "victims" ever came forward for fear of negative publicity. The news media did extensive interviews with the townspeople, and although most of the folks were shocked at the incident, few were suprised as Shepard's reputation preceded him. In fact, one reporter apparently interviewed a gay man in Laramie that claimed "Mathew slept around and had unprotected sex as if he had a death wish".....and "if the beating hadn't killed him....AIDS eventually would have". Some rumor mills have made speculation that Shepard could have been HIV positive at the time of the incident but this can't be substantiated.

The real splinter in the side of the gay movement is Mathew's mother - Judy Shepard. While Mathew may be remade into the ideal "poster boy" for the cause, Judy is nowhere near the ideal "poster mother", and as mentioned in a previous thread by Dr. Bob, often offends more people than she converts. Someone I know who has affiliations with a very popular gay rights group say that she is so abrasive that when they have to work with her in organizing an event and such, it is often doled out as punishment.

 

Dr. Bob, you will never get the whole story from the media, they have a pro-gay agenda. Its not just Jesse's case but a multitude of gay crimes every year that don't get press coverage for the same reason. It always has dumbfounded me why the popular media continues to view the abuse of young boys by males, which statistically speaking is far greater than the abuse of young girls by the same, as general child abuse rather than motivated by homosexual underpinnings. Sadly, too many "Christians" have bought into the lie and are now beating the drum along with all the hedonistic supporters in the democratic party (and an ever growing number of republican panderers as well) and Hollywood.

I will be the first to admit that the church has in part fumbled the ball in handling of people who are of such persuasions. I can recall a number of people who were emotionally damaged from well meaning Christians' attempts to exorcize the disembodied "demons of Sodom and Gommorrah" from them. If you can recall from the Bible when Jesus confronted the men who were going to stone the harlot, afterward when they had dispersed he said "neither do I accuse you.... go and sin no more...... Jesus was conveying to the woman that as the son of God he had absolved her of the sentence of death due her under Mosaic law, but as such she had a responsibility to turn from her wicked lifestyle. Not that she and all of us are not going to slip up and sin every once in a while, but there is a difference between being human and actively living in sin. Yes God loves homosexuals as much as he does the rest of us, but God absolves them of their sin only if they realize and admit that their actions are sinful and make a decision to live justly and seek God's help in turning from their wicked ways. Any person who wishes to carry on in overt acts of sinfulness within the body of Christ should be made an example of by the church and that goes for adulterers as well as any other infractionary behaviors.

My cousin recently wrote our Grandmother about her decision to "live with" rather than marry her boyfriend. This is troubling to my Grandmother who attempted to raise us all in the fear and admonition of the Lord. My Grandmother's response was "Mary, you have my unconditional love and you always will. But please do not ask me to condone behavior that both you and I know is morally wrong and contrary to the will of God concerning your life". As you said loving the sinner does not mean condoning the sin, but neither does it mean turning a blind eye to their actions. As representaives of the Godhead Trinity we are the only manifestation of God many people will ever observe, and as such how will they ever know that God dissapproves of their sinful lifestyles if we stick our heads in the sand and never confront the matter? Christ preached love but he also was pretty stern with many of his detractors and, in rage, threw the moneychangers out of the temple. I also recall that Paul resorted to what you would maybe call "third grade playground name calling" when he rebuked a magician on the Island of Cyprus as "A little child of the Devil".
I cannot help but believe that we as Christians may be at a point that the Israelites were when Isaiah prolaimed "Choose this day whom you shall serve!"

 

Dr. Bob, you are one of the most prominent and outspoken characters here on this board. You are very well educated and You have a reputation for always being even tempered and insightful. That is how I see you.

This thread plainly disturbed me. I was not encouraged by it and I found it difficult to resist. Not because you started it, but because of what I frequently hear. It's a passionate topic and folks passion will come out if given an opportunity. You opened the door for everything that was said in this thread. That is not a bad thing. If the passion (zeal) that folks have for topics like this has been "pent up" for a while it may come across as not well thought out.

How I long for face to face debates like this, but I must settle for less effective mediums to try to work things out.

Respectfully,

Dave.

 

Psalms 7:11 -

God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day;

Is homosexuality wicked ? But the homosexual is not ?

Psalms 9:5 -

Thou hast rebuked the heathen, thou hast destroyed the wicked, thou hast put out their name for ever and ever.

Strange that a God who loves this world and its inhabitants so unconditionally should talk of destroying anyone in the world He is supposed to love so much that He gave His only begotten Son for it.

Ps. 9:17 -

The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.

Note also the next verse from the New Testament

I Cor. 6:9 -

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind

Is God's character just love ? Is He not a God of Wrath as much as a God of Love ? Is that Love for all humankind ? Oh, the human heart and the human thought would like it to be so, but
God says:

Is. 55:9 -

For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Let us stop blaspheming God by comparing the way He loves with the way fallen man loves, please.

 

Following your reasoning, men who abuse young girls are "motivated by heterosexual underpinnings"?... no, it's called pedophilia and has nothing to do with hetero or homosexual issues.

Look, it's child abuse and wrong for any adult to abuse any children.

Dr Bob has shown us that he is in the camp that says... you get what you deserve as a sinner... and if you're gay, I'll call you a sexual whore to boot.

I have no problem with Dr. Bob saying "you get what you deserve as a sinner", it's the last part that is unsettling... coming from a person in his station in life.