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Matthew 23:13

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by agedman, Jul 5, 2019.

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  1. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    This is similar thinking to what I placed in the OP.

    I put the Jewish point of view that Matthew (as writing to Jews) would consider when recording the words of Christ.

    By disregarding the purpose for the writing, interpretation can be skewed into some Gentile thinking that just is so out of place. This is seen in Van's view of what the verse supports.

    To the Jews, God's kingdom was through the temple, and through the rituals and rites of temple worship.
     
    #121 agedman, Jul 11, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2019
  2. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    And there are a lot of things not in The Bible.

    The Spiritual Reality of Eternal Salvation is no more Contained in the words expressed, as; "shut", "shut up", "the kingdom", "of heaven", "the kingdom of heaven", "against", "go in", "suffer", "are entering", "entering", "go", "in", or "go in", than is Contained in the souls, to which Jesus is Speaking, then and now.
     
  3. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Denial of the obvious, and the fallacy of personal incredulity.
    Calvinists, would avoid claiming their doctrine of total spiritual inability means those entering would be under of influence of irresistible grace, because they were prevented, demonstrating both doctrines are bogus.
     
  4. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    They were not prevented from entering. The Pharisees attempted to prevent them. Some translations say "hindered" those entering. Or do you believe that a mere human, and a Pharisee at that, can decide who gets to enter the kingdom of Heaven?

    You got a name of a Calvinist that associates irresistible grace with Matthew 23:13? Fourth time I've asked.
     
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  5. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Just read Matthew 23:13 folks, in the light has scampered into the dark.
    Let me ask you four times, why do you need the opinion of mistaken men to accept the very words of Christ? Repeat Ad nauseam

    NASB nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.
     
    #125 Van, Jul 12, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2019
  6. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    I see. So you believe that a mere human, and a Pharisee at that, can decide who gets to enter the kingdom of Heaven?
     
  7. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Yet another denial of the obvious. Tell me how a false teaching can result in a destructive heresy. Or do you deny yet more scripture.

    Or how about the reverse, how to those spreading the gospel "hasten the day" of the Lord's return. Or do we get even more denial?

    Folks, exhaustive determinism is a destructive heresy in my opinion. My view is some things are predestined, but not all things. God has set before us the choice of life or death, and begs us to choose life. Those that deny this advocate the doctrines of futility.
     
  8. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    A Bible reader does not start, by assuming they are disparaging a sound Systematic Theology, by making a grand stand on the presumed ramifications of what their fleshly, carnal, finite depravity 'thinks' The Bible says, by 'reasoning' with a mind effected by the curse of the fall.

    A Bible reader starts with understanding their depravity and asking The Holy Spirit to Enable them to Spiritually discern what the Bible says.

    I do not know of any evidence that Eternal Salvation is a topic discussed by Jesus Christ, in Matthew 23:13, and I do not believe any evidence exists.
     
  9. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    Look, if you are going to state point blank, and you are, that Pharisees can deter people from entering Heaven, you are proposing a system of free will where people choose Christ, but an unbelieving human can bar them from entering Heaven. That's ludicrous. It's a direct consequence of your interpretation of Matt. 23:13. Yet you try to ascribe beliefs onto others that cannot be seen from the text.

    Got a name of a Calvinist that sees irresistible grace in Matt. 23:13? Fifth time I've asked.
     
  10. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    As I said before, that would be me.
    Since no one enters into the kingdom of God without being drawn by the Father ( John 6:44 ), having their natures overcome by the spiritual, life-giving power of the Holy Spirit ( John 3:3 ), and that it is indeed done according to His will and not theirs, then yes, I am one that believes that "Irresistible Grace" is what is responsible for all those that are "entering in" in Matthew 23:13.


    To all,

    In addition, it states, not that they were prevented...as in "stopped", but that the Pharisees " shut up the kingdom of God against men.".
    This means, to me, that the Pharisees, through their false doctrines, were, in their actions, "shutting up" or attempting to prevent men from entering...which I've stated before.

    Looking at one verse to the detriment of others is not going to solve this issue.
    One must consider what others passages state with regard to who is entering, what affect false doctrines have, what Christ says about His sheep and how He will never lose one of them, and how those sheep are not only purchased, but kept.

    Election plays a major part, as does "Irresistible Grace" in this passage.
    I think that, what many are not seeing, is how the details of everything His word says, is not being brought to bear on the question.
     
    #130 Dave G, Jul 12, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2019
  11. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    The above underlined Please show scripture that Proves man is fallen.

    I'd like to know what you think going into the Kingdom of Heaven really is. None can enter with out the righteousness of Christ covering there sins.Is this not Salvation?
    MB
     
  12. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    As mentioned earlier regarding what on what controversy were the fellows talking about from Matthew 23:13, Gill's Exposition with my comments placed in bold is this:
    ...
    Is there a premise being advanced to cause a controversy, where, "for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men" has an indication of "the kingdom of heaven", being Spoken of here by Jesus, could somehow mean, "eternal life"?

    The entrance into "eternal life" can neither be opened nor shut by men: those whom God determines to bring to "eternal life", shall have an entrance abundantly ministered to them, in spite of the opposition of men and devils..."

    Eternal Salvation is not to be found, in any respect, within the text of Matthew 23:13.

    "You will not come into Me".

    The Bible reader does not ask, "what do I think entering into the kingdom of heaven is".

    The Bible reader asks, " what does God say?"

    And there are a lot of things not in The Bible.

    I do not know of any evidence that the Spiritual Reality of Eternal Salvation is Contained in the words expressed, as; "shut", "shut up", "the kingdom", "of heaven", "the kingdom of heaven", "against", "go in", "suffer", "are entering", "entering", "go", "in", or "go in", in Matthew 23:13, and I do not believe any evidence exists.

    I posted a sober, God-honoring, Bible supported explaination of this Passage, previously.

    For the sake of honesty, to skip it is illigitimate, and then to add unsubstantiated and contradictory 'thinking' that can never be found in the text, is not, automatically, "The Thinking of God".
     
  13. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    I'd like to address this as well, since I believe that with two people answering it, there is a better chance of being as thorough as possible:

    Step one in the "Fall":
    Genesis 3:1-24 describes what happened, and Adam's attitude about it after sinning.
    Instead of expressing remorse, falling on his face and begging the Lord's forgiveness, the very first thing he did was "point at Eve", by casting the blame on her.
    The Lord then pronounces judgment.

    In "Covenant Theology", this was the first law: " but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." ( Genesis 2:17 ) and its consequences.
    The reward for obedience was to continue walking with God and enjoying paradise on Earth...the curse for disobedience was death ( both physical, and we find later, spiritual ) and as Adam and Eve found, to be cast out of the Garden.

    Step two in the "Fall":
    While not immediately evident, one only has to read up to Genesis 4:8 to find one of the things that mankind would be given over to, having a reprobate mind to commit...murder ( See Romans 1:29-31 ), and one of these Adam was guilty for, in the strictest sense...covenant breaking.

    Step three in the "Fall":
    Reading further, one only has to study the book of Genesis through to the end before seeing the effects of what is described in Romans 1:18-32 and Romans 3:10-18 as being true.
    Mankind falls into sin and loves it.
    Also and for the most part, few...very few men seek God ( and with the exception of Enoch, Joseph and perhaps a couple others, they are all described as God having spoken to or manifest Himself to them, first., which many people see as happening, but often don't seem to be able to "connect the dots" with...

    Scriptures that prove that man is "fallen" in his nature and sins with no stopping, from God's point of view:

    Romans 1:18-32.
    Romans 3:10-18
    John 3:19-20
    Ecclesiastes 7:20
    Psalms 10:1-11
    Psalms 14:1-3
    Psalms 36:1-4
    Psalms 52:1-4
    Psalms 53:1-3
    Psalms 58:2-5
    Proverbs 6:12-14
    Proverbs 16:2
    Proverbs 19:4

    The fact that Scripture states that some are righteous while others are "wicked" ( from god's point of view, everyone outside of Christ is "wicked" ) is testament to God's forgiveness and declaring that person as righteous...
    Because there is none righteous ( Romans 3:10 ).
    Forgiveness only comes through the blood of His Son ( Romans 5:9-10, 2 Corinthians 5:21 ).


    So the righteous being spoken about in the "Old Testament" are those whom God have forgiven, even though His Son had yet to come into the world.
    Fallen, and we can't get up unless God comes along and lifts us up, by His grace. :)
     
  14. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    Alan,
    Eternal life = everlasting life = "the kingdom of God" = "the kingdom of Heaven".

    " Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." ( John 3:3 ).

    "and said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. " ( Matthew 18:3 )

    " Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." ( John 5:24 )

    " Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him." ( 1 John 5:1 ).



    Putting it all together...

    The believer is born of God.
    Unless someone is born again ( born of God ), they cannot see the kingdom of God.
    Unless someone is converted and become as little children, they cannot enter into the kingdom of Heaven.
    Whosoever believes has everlasting life ( John 3:16 ).
    Whosoever believes has eternal life ( John 3:15 ).

    Therefore, anyone entering in to the kingdom, is anyone who is born again and has everlasting, eternal life.


    May God bless you, sir.
     
  15. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    For all of time and Eternity, nothing in Matthew 23:13 says one word about, "the righteousness of Christ covering there sins", and Matthew 23:13 has never and will never have any references to Eternal Salvation.

    To misinterprete the Passage and add Eternal Salvation into it is an Infinitly different 'thinking', imposed onto the Passage, than is Spoken by Jesus.
     
  16. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    Those verses are put together perfectly.

    "I do not see" any illusion, or indication, in Matthew 23:13, of any expression regarding, "Eternal Life".

    I say that in the same sense as I might say, "I don't see gifts of Instantaneous, miraculous healing, for folks today in the Bible", although some think they do.

    I don't see Eternal Life spoken of, in that Passage.

    It doesn't fit.

    Exposure to being aquatinted with the influence of the Kingdom of Heaven and the Preaching of the Gospel, with the witness of Gospel demonstrated by the Ordinances of Jesus' Churches does.

    The men of current religious interest and involvement were blocked from being exposed to The newly initiated Ministry of Jesus and the opportunity to hear and experience the testimony of those, in The Kingdom of Heaven, being exemplified and told,b and demonstrated by Jesus and His Disciples.

    Those men in the Passage were shut up and prevented from the presence and teaching of The Kingdom of Heaven, which they were looking into and desiring to, at least, find something out about.

    They were prevented by the Pharisees from entering into an understanding of Salvation, which the Pharisees willfully avoided and would not go in and under the Teaching of The Eternal Word of God, to hear The Gospel of The Kingdom of Heaven, which then could have issued into Eternal Life.
     
  17. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    The first mention of, "the kingdom of heaven", in Matthew, is Matthew 3:2, where the concept of, "the kingdom of heaven" is said, by John the Baptist, to be, "at hand".

    The fulfillment of Isaiah's Prophecy, by John here is, "Prepare the way of the Lord, make His paths straight."

    Jesus also spoke of, "the kingdom of heaven", as a concept that could be, "at hand", in Matthew 4:17.

    Jesus told His twelve Disciples, "go, preach, saying The kingdom of heaven is at hand", in Matthew 10:7.

    Jesus gives several discriptions of, "the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven", begining in 13:11.

    So, we know that, in Matthew 23:13, the "entering", and/ or, "shut up...against" & "go in", COULD all refer to a concept that is, "at hand", for which John the Baptist was initially making a "path", or "the way of the Lord".

    The sense would be, "for you shut up men against the path to the way of the Lord as He and His followers have Come Preaching The kingdom of heaven, although it is at hand", and you don't go where it is preached or allow others to go in, under the preaching of the kingdom of heaven", as Jesus' and the Disciples' Divine Ministry.
     
  18. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    The key to the Interpretation and the 'clincher' to engender confidence to preach this is John the Baptist's obedience to and fulfillment of Isaiah's Prophecy.

    We have Jesus essentially saying, in Matthew 23:13, "You are Not preparing the way of The Lord and you are Not making My paths straight, or preaching that the kingdom of God is at hand. That is blocking you and your hearers. Woe unto you!"
     
  19. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    Six Hour Warning
    This thread will be closed sometime after 6:50 AM Pacific.
     
  20. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Since Calvinists deny their own doctrine, not one Calvinist posting on this board has stepped up and admitted to believing no one seeks God unless compelled by irresistible grace. Not one.

    And I believe in scripture, even if you claim it is "ludicrous." Did I say those entering had had their faith credited as righteousness? Nope.
     
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