Matthew 25 Judgment of Goats and Sheep

You should give up smoking -- like I did! :laugh: Why would Jesus have to repeat Himself only to say that same thing? Don't you see that a rich man can hardly get into Christ's kingdom nor into God's?

You know, the Calvinists make a big issue of how God draws and all that come God gives to the Son. Do you not perceive that even they are talking about 2 kingdoms? God draws everyone. Those who come to His kingdom God gives into Christ's earthly kingdom until the rapture. I don't know who taught your "Kingdom of God graduate course" but I would say that, even if he had as many degrees as a thermometer, he missed something here.

skypair

 

Don't you understand the Hebrew parallelism Christ was using? I recommend you read a good book on Hebrew poetry. Compare this passage to Proverbs or Psalms and maybe you'll get it. In Hebrew poetry, what Christ said here is called by some synonymous parallelism, in which you say the same thing in two different ways.

Really, I don't need the teaching that KofH and KofG are two different things to keep me from being a Calvinist. And no, I don't perceive that they are talking about 2 kingdoms. I'm a linguist. I deal professionally with meaning in three different languages all the time. And I see no linguistic difference between the two terms.

So nope, sorry, you're not convincing me that there are two kingdoms. You're proving nothing to me linguistically, you're just giving me opinion so far. I'm still trying to get used to the fact that you believe the Kingdom of Heaven doesn't exist in Heaven! What, like the Emperor of Japan doesn't reign in Japan???

 

Sorry this has you in such a tizzy. Interpret 1Cor 15:24 for me then. What kingdom is who going to deliver up to whom? And why is that not Christ delivering up His kingdom into the Father's kingdom above? How does your interpretation square with 15:25-28? What do you think is the difference between the OT Isaiah 66 new heavens/new earth and the Rev 21 New Heavens/New Earth?

skypair

 

Why, thank you kindly for providing a reference that further proves my point.

(1) The Greek (and English) has a definite article before "kingdom," meaning there is only one kingdom.

(2) The term KofH never appears outside of Matthew (something you've not discussed yet). Paul never uses it, so KofH cannot be meant here. In fact, in the wider context of 1 Corinthians, Paul uses KofG 4 times (including v. 50 here). That's the only term he ever uses! So that's what he has to mean here. :saint:

 

"The" certainly doesn't preclude the existence of another kingdom elsewhere, John -- like in heaven. :saint:

And where's the rejoinder regarding two totally different new heavens and new earths (Isa and Rev)??

Why does only Matthew use the terminology "kingdom of heaven?" What I can find, it is only used in teaching the "kingdom of heaven" parables. The way Larkin and others explain it is the way I do as well. Jesus was teaching His people about His kingdom on earth -- that it didn't just include them -- that there were changes coming that would "sideline" them for a while (mustard seed, 11th hour laborers, 10 virgins, wedding supper, etc. really all of them) -- that His coming again would be to them in judgment and then in blessing (MK).

The same parables are, of course, instructive to us as well. But they regard earthly affairs. Both Paul and John "took trips" to the kingdom of God and explained what they saw there. It is the pattern for things below according to Paul.

Paul visited during the church age and what did he see? New Jerusalem, the assembly of the church, Christ, etc.

John visited, ostensibly, post-rapture during the tribulation on earth. He saw what Matthew's parables would lead us to expect -- through the tabernacle images and the Lamb and final scene of the smoke-filled tabernacle in Rev 15, he saw the tabernacle of earth being consecrated from sacrifice for the High Priest's, Christ's, entry into the world again! This, then, is the kingdom of God SPIRITUAL representation of earthly, KoH events. In fact, the parable of the woman leavening the meal (Mt 13:33) is the KoH account of the earthly tribulation that John was seeing the spiritual equivalent of in heaven!

I believe that possibly, being a linguist, you are neglecting contexts and related passages. There is NO doubt that this kingdom down here is different than the kiingdom in heaven --- else why pray "Thy [Father's] kingdom come...?" And why would Jesus, of all people, be teaching us to pray it if His kingdom has come and is standing right before them?! Or even better, why would He teach them that this would be the prayer during His MK (Mt 5-7 lays out the "laws" operative in the MK, too)?

skypair

 

Then you don't understand grammar. And you apparantly don't understand context. The context of the entire corpus of the writings of Paul exclude the term "Kingdom of Heaven," yet you say it is there in 1 Cor. 15. You have absolutely no linguistic reason or context to say so.

Sorry, I see only one new heaven and new earth in those passages. Prove to me it's two.

Well then you and good old Larkin with his charts both missed it. You are not taking the Scripture just as it is, but trying to interpret it according to own system of dispensationalism. That turns into eisegesis.

Think about this. Only Matthew used KofH because only he was writing a Gospel specifically to the Jews. I'll leave you to chew on that.

(1) Then explain why some of those parables also occur in Luke with KofG instead of KofH.

(2) Prove to me where the visions Paul and John had were specifically to the "Kingdon of God." That is your own idea, made to fit your own system of interpretation. The Bible does not say that. KofG does not occur one single time in Revelation, and it does not occur one single time in 2 Cor., especially ch. 12 where Paul discusses his revelation.

(3) What? Paul saw the New Jerusalem? The Bible doesn't say that. It comes only from your own feverish brow. Take two aspirin and post again in the morning.

Being both a linguist and well-trained in English and Greek exegesis and hermeneutics (I highly appreciate my teachers and mentors), I fail to see your proof. You're jumping to quite a few conclusions.

Why pray "Thy kingdom come?" I do it all the time, praying for the rapture. And I completely disagree that the Sermon on the Mount lays out the laws of the MK. And I've taught through it several times in Japanese and English, and have translated it into Japanese from Greek. There is no evidence whatever in Matthew for this viewpoint.

 

The Sheep and Goats Judgment speak about the time after the Tribulation, after Christ has returned. He will then separate the Sheep (belivers) from the Goats (unbelievers/apostates/pagans). The Goats will be judged on how they treated His people, the Sheep, who are mainly the Jews who have turned to Him (Jesus Christ). There are three judgments mentioned in the Bible.

1. Firstly the Judgment Seat of Christ - for believers, for judgment must begin at the House of God once they have been raptured, although saved, they will be judged on their works, i.e., every idle word spoken, who they hurt, who they scammed, etc, etc.
2. Then the Sheep-Goats judgment after the Tribulation, for all those unbelievers who survived the Tribulation, as remember, there will be no unbelievers in the Millennium, except for those who are born during this time (from those who enter into it by their natural bodies), and decide not to trust in the Lord Jesus Christ as their Saviour. Hence the reason why Satan is once again released from the bottomless pit to deceive the nations.
3. White Throne Judgment - when all the dead will be judged, even those who died in the flood.

The Sheep-Goats judgment will be something akin to justice being done in the courts after WW2, and those who murdered the Jews, only this time the Lord Jesus Christ will be in charge and will separate those who partake in the second holocaust, or those who refuse to help the Jews in their time of need, from the surviving believers (Sheep). He is the Shepherd.

 

KoH is Christ's kingdom, Homer. Daooooh!! :BangHead:

Wow!! Outside of pristine Rev 21 New Jerusalem are dying, burning, rotting corpses being consumed continually by worms and "abhorrent to all flesh." I think the Jews called it "Ghennah," no?

Oh, and hear this! A child of 100 years old THAT DIES (Isa 65:20) shall be considered old!! Yet Rev 21:4 says "and there shall be NO MORE DEATH THERE, nor sorrow, nor crying..." Perhaps you should go back and check whether you actually passed that "Kingdom of God" course you told me about! :laugh:

Ah, ha! The truth emerges of unbounded academic prejudice! You never even uncovered the NH/NE inconsistency in your own beliefs -- never looked for it when I asked you -- and now you blame the ignorance on me!

I knew that -- I SAID that -- so your point is?

The "context" of what happened in the OT -- history -- was not particularly helpful to their NEW COVENANT experience going forward. Were they to practice religion like Israel? NO! Were they to practice self-goverment like Israel? NO! Did they need to know how God saved anyone before? NO! Why make the point that people were saved differently under different circumstances in the past?

I don't appreciate your false accusations, John. I rather think I could exchange ideas more civilly with your granddad without being accused of being a dolt.

Again, the kingdom of heaven is earthly and physical. KoG is spiritual. Israel's promises are physical (Abrahamic covenant, Davidis covenant, Plaestinian covenant, fulfilling of the Mosaic covenant, etc.). Their Messiah was to be physical. The church's are spiritual/heavenly.

#1 It amazes me you are not familiar with any of this. #2 It amazes me that you don't know that the PHYSICAL world is to become Christ's footstool and when He has put down the last enemy, death, He will give His kingdom over to the Father. You don't find this in 1Cor 15:24-28?? Nor in the comparison of Isa 65 and Rev 21?? You need to pray harder then. At the end of the 2nd NH/NE, the rapture (Rev 20:11) delivers all the MK believers up to God's kingdom, NJ, (I know. This is a little harder to see UNLESS you read 1Cor 15:24) and they are seen in Rev 21:1 coming down in NJ to the NE which has also been transformed into the KoG.

Heb 12:22 -- "heavenly Jerusalem." Oh, and BTW, it's "the city of the living God." Is that KoG enough for you???? In fact, I think Jesus referred to it as "in my Father's house are many mansions."

For a linguist, that's a HUGE stretch, dontcha think? The rapture is you going to the kingdom -- not the kingdom coming TO you! C'mon, John. Get real! Even liberal Christianity thinks it is Christ coming to reign. But do you think that God's kingdom will NEVER come to earth so that His "will be done on earth as it is in heaven?"

Know what? I think you are "skating." I think you are just "skimming across the surface" of KoG issues and do not even live up to the legacy John R. Rice left you!

Well, #1 -- Jesus was OFFERING His MK when at His first advent. #2 -- Mt 5-7 was its "constitution" (per Dr Rogers among others). #3 -- His kingdom was rejected in Mt 12. #4 -- He began to speak of the spiritual nature of the kingdom among Jews and Gentiles in Mt 13.

Don't be ashamed that you haven't perceived it before now. I know you are a busy man. Everyone is "busy" until they get to retire like me!! :laugh: Hey! I'll find you a lot and a builder here in Longview if you are ready to retire and would like to continue this debate face-to-face.

skypair

 

John,

I remember we got "crosswise" a few years ago because 1) you doubted my "credentials." My "credentials" are the Holy Spirit of salvation. The One by Whom we are "united in the bond of peace." His "gifting" is in accordance with 1Cor 12:7 -- "the word of wisdom; ... the word of knowledge" which are FROM the Word of God. NONE of this "relies" on Larkin or Rogers or anyone else --- in fact, they are only "apostolic foundations," so to speak (1Cor 3:10), for what I understand.

2) At the time, you dismissed my doubts about your Calvinist orientation (as I recall). Again you were satisfied with your own "derived" view and maintained prejudiciallly that you could not "find" my views in the scriptures I suggested at the time.

Let me assure you -- these conversations are not about your salvation or mine. The issue is whether our divergent views can both be established by scripture at the same time. Calvinism cannot be established in the presence of free will as understood in scripture and the denial of 2 kingdoms cannot be established when 2 distinct kingdoms appear in scripture. That is, the church is going to be living in the "kingdom of God" while Christ is administering His "kingdom of heaven" on earth during the tribulation!!! You can't deny that -- you can only ignore that!

skypair

 

I made no false accusations. I mentioned nothing about your ethics or morals or actions. I simply gave my opinion of your hermeneutics. I'm sorry if that offends you.

I really don't like it when people try to influence me using my grandfather. And I did not accuse you of being a dolt. Now that's a false accusation.

It amazes me that you make assumptions about my knowledge.

The truth is, John R. Rice was much more opposed to your brand of dispensationalism than I am. He would not have dealt lightly with your treatment of the Sermon on the Mount. I dare you to read Chapter 9 in his False Doctrines, where he calls this view hyper-dispensationalism.

Who knows what the future hold. But we've gotten far enough away from the OP that I think I'll bow out now.

God bless.

P. S. For the record, I got an A in the Kingdom of God course. The textbook was The Greatness of the Kingdom, by Alva McClain. Check it out--it would certainly help you!

 

Assumptions??? You brag on it enough that I needn't even try to "make assumptions!"

And as to the OP --- the Kingdom of Heaven parable about sheep and goats --- you still won't answer the dispensational aspect of the parable and whether there is or is not a KoH that differs from the KoG.

John, I've given you plenty of evidence for that difference. All you have done is to 1) take "linguistic" umbrage, 2) refuse to answer my assertions from scripture of your own, and 3) brag on your academic superiority.

No doubt he's a fellow "Covenant Theologist" from a slightly reputable "diploma mill." Let me guess --- Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary of which you are, no doubt, a "distinguished graduate," right? Congratulations! You mastered the "party line!" :laugh:

Now, are you going to or not going to reconcile Rev 21 with Isa 65-66 New Heavens/New Earth? Are you going to or no going to reconcile the KoH and KoG issue and show your proofs? Goldie is waiting to see if you can in any way acquit yourself.

skypair

 

You are RIGHT ON, goldie!! Hold that thought. I think we are about to hear more from the "oracle of BB!" :laugh:

skypair

 

Here is my writing from like 1996 about the :

Five judgments
​

The Lord God is a judging God

"To judge" can mean three things in the Holy Bible:

A. to discern between good and evil (human function)
B. to condemn, usually falsely (human function)
C. to reward the just & punish the evil (Godly function)

The Five judgments:
​

1. Believers for SIN on the Cross
WHO: All who will Believe
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a merciful God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: found innocent by the Bood of Jesus

How to get from judgment 1 to judgment 2
(and avoid judgments 3, 4, or 5):

Romans 10:9 (KJV): "That if thou
shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt
believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from
the dead, thou shalt be saved."

2. judgment Seat of Christ
(2 Cor 5:10, 1 Cor 3:11-15)
WHO: Believers for works
WHEN: during the Great Tribulation on earth;
Right after the Rapture/Resurrection that starts
the Tribulation
WHERE: Heaven
WHY: to assign rewards (including
the Millinnial Kingdom rest)
to the redeemed for their good works
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: found innocent by the Bood of Jesus

3. judgment of Yisrael under Antichrist
(Ezekiel 22:17-22 Time of Jacob's Trouble; Ezekiel 20:34-38;
Jeremiah 30:1-24; Revelation 6-19)
WHO: Yisrael
WHEN: during the Tribulation
WHERE: earth
WHY: The Lord God fulfills His promises
HOW: The wrath of God by Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Great Tribulation

4. Throne of His Glory judgment
(AKA: Sheep and Goat Nations judgment, Matthew 25:31-46)
WHO: the nations: the living surviver nations of the Great Tribulation
(these people are NOT saved, they are human in human bodies)
WHEN: after the Great Tribulation, before the Millennial Age
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God fulfills His promises: God will bless those
who bless Yisrael and curse those who curse Yisrael
HOW: Judged by their treatment of Yisrael
WHAT: the cursed nations to Hell; the blessed nations
to the Millennial Messanic KingdomAge

5. Great White Throne judgment
(Revelation 20:11:15)
WHO: the wicked dead
WHEN: after the Millennial Age; before endless ages
WHERE: between Hell and the Lake of Fire
WHY: The Lord God is not mocked
HOW: The wrath of God by Messiah Jesus
WHAT: the Messiah rejectors consigned to endless punishment

NOTE: The delineation of the five revealed
judgments above does not preclude other specific
or general judgments. One place on the net i found
a chart where TWENTY-FOUR judgments were delineated.
The Lord God is a judging God and His hand is not shortened
by His revelation to us nor
by our understaning of His revelation to us.

May Jesus our Savior and our Lord be Praised!

--compilation by ed,
incurable Jesus Phreaque

 

Umm ... JoJ ...

I guess you gave up being a student of the Bible??? Know it all already, eh?

When there is clearly more than one kingdom and you ignore it, I guess I'm a little worried about motivations. raying:

skypair

 

The Judgment of the Sheep and the Goats is the same judgment called the Great White Throne Judgment in Revelation 20, the general judgment that follows the general resurrection.

 

"Linguistics." No context. Simply linguistics.

I would think that if it was the same words and contexts, then, that even the original translators (like those who translated the KJV) would have NOT distinguished by writing KoH one place and KoG in another. What gave them the "right" to do that???

skypair