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MBBC grads!!! Some thoughts on Dr. Cedarholm please!

Discussion in 'Baptist Colleges & Seminaries' started by superdave, Oct 23, 2003.

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  1. superdave

    superdave New Member

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    Specifically old MBBC grads! :D Sorry, no MBBC grads are really that old, but I am speaking of early years, like before 75. I recieved an email recently regarding Dr. Cedarholm's position on the text of the Bible. I am not stirring up controversy, but I would like to get more input from some of you who were there early on in his ministry at MBBC. Please give your two cents or more if you have them, and respond to the following quotations that were recently sent to me. They were in an email sent to a large number of alumni, hence I view them as statements not intended to be private. I sent the more general and generic quotes just to give you the basic point of the email. BTW, the following quotes do not align with the official position of the school in regards to the text, or to Dr. Cedarholm's position on it.

    I have been told contradictory information on this subject, so thought I would get the input of those on this board. As for myself, this was never an issue to pay attention to, and I never remember it being an issue among the several MBBC grads from 68-70 range that are among my family, friends, and my own teachers while at MBBC in the 90's who were incidentally, taught by Dr. Cedarholm in the early days of the school.


     
    #1 superdave, Oct 23, 2003
  2. PastorGreg

    PastorGreg Member
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    I think the quotes are pretty accurate. It just wasn't that big an issue back then. Pretty much all Fundamentalists used the KJV. IF I'm not mistaken, there was no NIV or NKJV in the early 70's.
     
    #2 PastorGreg, Oct 23, 2003
  3. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    This is my statemnet on Bibliology that I wrote for my ordination SoF held by Northport Baptist, Madison in June of 81. Dr. Cedarholm, the Drs. Hollowood (Dr. Jane would be what on could call a silent member of the council) and the then pastor of Calvary Baptist, Jefferson sat on the council.
    That statment passed muster with the above named individuals.

    The problem arose when Dr. Cedarholm retired and passed the reins to his nephew, Arno Weniger, Jr. Dr. Wenigar then proceeded to clean house. The Dr. Hollowoods, Dr. Weeks and others soon found themselves on the outside. From what I have been able to gather from my distant perch, Dr. Wenigar wanted to bring MBBC into the mainstream of "Fundamentalism" (at least as the term is defined at the Citadel on Wade Hampton Blvd.). That meant out with being a TR only school and out with the Spritual Kinship Theory of Baptist history. He wanted the turn the school from being school of Fundamental (Historic) Baptists to a school of Baptist Fundamentalists.

    Yes, there was no NIV or NKJV in those days. But there was the RV, ASV, RSV, and NASB. And there was the Nestle-Aland Greek NT.
     
    #3 Squire Robertsson, Oct 23, 2003
  4. Circuitrider

    Circuitrider <img src=/circuitrider2.JPG>
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    That statment passed muster with the above named individuals.

    The problem arose when Dr. Cedarholm retired and passed the reins to his nephew, Arno Weniger, Jr. Dr. Wenigar then proceeded to clean house. The Dr. Hollowoods, Dr. Weeks and others soon found themselves on the outside. From what I have been able to gather from my distant perch, Dr. Wenigar wanted to bring MBBC into the mainstream of "Fundamentalism" (at least as the term is defined at the Citadel on Wade Hampton Blvd.). That meant out with being a TR only school and out with the Spritual Kinship Theory of Baptist history. He wanted the turn the school from being school of Fundamental (Historic) Baptists to a school of Baptist Fundamentalists.

    Yes, there was no NIV or NKJV in those days. But there was the RV, ASV, RSV, and NASB. And there was the Nestle-Aland Greek NT.     </font>[/QUOTE]Dr. Jane on your ordination council...that is scary. :eek:

    A couple of factual corrections. I don't believe that Dr. Weniger is Dr. Cedarholm's nephew. He always said he was a "shirttail relative" whatever that means. Also Dr. Weniger did not force Dr. Weeks out (depending on my you mean by being on the outside), in fact Dr. Weeks continued on the faculty and administration until he was no longer able to carry on his teaching load.

    I do believe that Dr. Cedarholm was a strong defender of the TR text and I would put myself in that category as well (I personally believe the TR text is the preserved text...but that is another matter). However, he chose Dr. Weniger as his hand-picked replacement. Dr. Weniger's position on the text was known in that he did not share the strong position of Dr. Cedarholm, yet he chose him anyway. It seems that Dr. Cedarholm did not consider that a sufficient reason to change his choice of successors. In fact his subsequent following of Dr. Weniger's leadership in the administration proves that very fact. [​IMG]

    I attended MBBC during the first two years of the school. I took Greek both years and was a Greek minor. When the school began I used my UBS Greek text purchased from the bookstore of another Bible College where Dr. Cedarholm had been the president. We used the UBS text during at least that first year and into the second. During that last year I did finally get a copy of the Trinitarian Bible Society TR text, but the UBS text was still used in class. [​IMG]

    While I am a strong defender of the TR text and thus of the KJV English text, I am not "KING JAMES ONLY" in the spirit or direction of Ruckman and his followers. I believe they are bordering on heresy. :eek:

    MBBC is a great school with excellent leadership over the last 35 years. Yes there have been some bumps on the road, but MBBC is still one of the best if not THE best Bible College in America. [​IMG]
     
    #4 Circuitrider, Oct 23, 2003
  5. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    I, too, was at MBBC at its origin and received its first Master's diploma (proudly hanging on my wall). Funny, squire, Jane Hollowood graduated with her BA with Circuitrider, myself and my wife. She is in a class by herself - as was her venerable husband!

    Dr. Cedarholm didn't teach Greek. He didn't deal with Greek. He taught (usually) one class for "preacher boys" and it never ever dealt with issues like Greek texts!

    I only used a UBS (NOT TR Greek text) and had 5 years of Greek. I think the TR is vastly inferior to the modern texts, but would use it as a resource.

    The email floating is from some who pirated the MBBC alumni list and "spammed" all members to buy their book! It promotes the KJVOnly sect, an evil and divisive group that NEVER was taught at Maranatha BBC.

    I could give you any number of quotations where Dr. Cedarholm would say (after reading a KJV1769 revised verse) "Now, this could be better translated . . . "

    Those words would NEVER fall from an "only" sect liberal.

    p.s. The doctrinal statement of MBBC was and still is that the original autographs were inspired. No KJVonly crappolla for them . . which is why all three of my children now have BS degrees from Maranatha as well.
     
    #5 Dr. Bob, Oct 23, 2003
  6. aefting

    aefting New Member

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    I’m not a MBBC grad (I’m from the “Citadel” as Squire would say) but I do own an interesting little book, Evaluating Versions of the New Testament, by Everett Fowler and published by MBBC in 1981. In the Forward, Dr. Cedarholm writes the following,

    About 12-13 years ago, someone gave me this book to “help me understand” the problems with modern versions. All it really does is highlight some of the differences between text types as seen in the various English versions. It was this book that prompted me to begin my study of the KJVO issue and to see that the so-called doctrinal problems caused by omissions or changes in the text/translation had no basis in reality.


    Andy
     
    #6 aefting, Oct 23, 2003
  7. superdave

    superdave New Member

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    Thanks for the input, notice I left some info out of the topic heading to keep out the crazies!
    I was interested in factual recollection, not propagandist rhetoric, so far so good.

    I (being a relative of two of the above grads) had always known that there was definately respect and trust in the TR and the KJV by Dr. Cedarholm, but it was never made an issue as far as MBBC was concerned. And Dr. Weniger did make some changes even while I was a student, not inteded to "redirect" MBBC's position necessarily, but to deal with a rather vocal minority among the student body who were spewing KJV-onlyist rubbish.

    When it became an issue, it was dealt with, until than, I guess the policy was let sleeping dogs lie.

    Dr. Bob is correct BTW, those quotes, along with several others, were from a chain of emails which probably should have been caught by my spam filter, and probably will be from now on. It was slightly disturbing that someone would send out advertising for that particular book, and try to label it as coming from or inspired by MBBC in any way, when their policy has never been KJV or TR ONLY, as evidenced by the variety of texts that have been used by various students and greek profs over the years.

    I agree Circuitrider, that it obviously was not a watershed issue to Dr. C, else why would he have followed the leadership of Dr. Weniger, and even chosen him as his successor in the first place.
     
    #7 superdave, Oct 24, 2003
  8. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    Well, like I tried to write she was a silent member of the council. However, a week or so later, she complimented me on not leaving The Blood out of my soteriology section. Mrs. Hollowood remarked
    As I understand it, a Wenigar sister married Dr. Cedarholm's brother. In my part of the world, that makes him a nephew. But then, I am being a bit of a Kremlinologist here. So, if anybody has more definitive knowledge, please share it.
    All my knowledge of the Hollowood, Weeks, et al sitiuation comes from an afternoon conversation I had with the Hollowoods in Watertown six or so years ago. Considering all the factors in the case, that may not be the best evidence. But, other than that one time, I haven't been east of Denver in twenty years. So, I am out of the alumni gossip loop.
     
    #8 Squire Robertsson, Oct 24, 2003
  9. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    I have always held that schools like MBBC and BJU were leadership training school. Their secular cousins were West Point, the Naval Academy, et al. Hence, Maranatha is West Point on the Rock River and BJU is The Citadel on Wade Hampton Blvd. :D
     
    #9 Squire Robertsson, Oct 24, 2003
  10. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    From the MBBC Alumni Office:
    I have personally been in contact with both Dr. Jaspers and the erstwhile authors of this vomituous mass since the first publication. I did not feel free to share their comments, but this is from the alumni association.
     
    #10 Dr. Bob, Oct 24, 2003
  11. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    Regretfully, I do not see Dr. Oats (Mr. Oats in my day) as an unbiased wittness in the matter. He has a vested interest in the status quo and the 'successes' of the Wenigar administration.

    It would take someone like our own Dr. Bob or Dr. Jaspers (before he became President of MBBC) to be an expert yet neutral reviewer of the book under discussion. (Who says only the SBC or Hyles-Anderson has politics to talk about? ;) )
     
    #11 Squire Robertsson, Oct 24, 2003
  12. aefting

    aefting New Member

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    I actually have an authographed copy of Thou Shalt Keep Them. I know one of the authors, have corresponeded with him via e-mail about the version issue, and one of my best friends attends his church.

    Back in early September, I posted some information about this book in the Versions section of the BB:

    IT IS WRITTEN

    CANONICITY OF WORDS

    There really isn't anything Maranatha specific about the book except that several (but not all) of the authors have ties to MBBC. Maybe that's where the politics comes in.

    Andy
     
    #12 aefting, Oct 25, 2003
  13. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    Thank you for the links to our OWN discussion! I'd already forgotten about it as the debate has surfaced again.

    How would you feel about the ethics of men who, in spite of requests from the college NOT to tie the book to them, NOT to give unattributed "guotes" to Dr. Cedarholm and NOT to steal the entire alumni directory and SPAM them (since these same men are NOT supportive of MBBC or sending their kids there) -- and these men still did it??

    I would not be happy nor condoning a trifecta of error.
     
    #13 Dr. Bob, Oct 25, 2003
  14. Loren B

    Loren B New Member

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    I graduated in '74 and while the TR was given the top spot in preference, it was never made an issue.

    I was a Greek minor and had Coach W in first year greek. He did not hold to a TR position and to my knowledge was never forced to change his teaching.

    Those who used the MBBC email list need some serious work on their ethical standards.
     
    #14 Loren B, Oct 25, 2003
  15. superdave

    superdave New Member

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    Being aware of both issues, I would say that way too much effort is being expended in trying to either sell a book, or advance a personal agenda. Either way it really is not an appropriate use of the alumni list, nor do many of the alumni of MBBC wish to purchase such books, or see them linked to the school. There may have been nothing in the book about MBBC, but the emails were not shy at all about the linking of the author and the subject matter to the school, and the founder.

    I have the utmost respect for the legacy of Dr. Cedarholm, and really MBBC in general, but his position on a rather irrelevant issue to God's purpose for my life really is not something that I feel should be brought up as proof of the value of a book that I really have no interest in reading. These types of issues really should not be dividing our churches, schools, and organizations. They are not advancing the goals and objectives that have been set forth for the Church, and really are damaging the work of God. Obviously Dr. Cedarholm understood this, and did not make an issue out of it as far as the policies of the school. Seems to me, making an issue out of Dr. C's position serves no purpose but to hype a book, or advance a personal preference on a current "hot topic" Reminds me a little of Paul's indictment of the Corinthians. A little too much focus on the Servants, rather than the Master. :rolleyes:

    1Co 3:3 "For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal? Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase."

    Pretty clear even in a version using outdated English, and not based on the earliest texts available :D ;)
     
    #15 superdave, Oct 25, 2003
  16. Siegfried

    Siegfried Member

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    In addition to those on this board, I know of four alumni including myself who have attempted to deal directly with the individual who perpetrated the spam and request that he stop it. Good to hear there are still others.

    Trying to get this person to understand logic has reminded me of the "banging head on wall" icon Chris Temple used to use.
     
    #16 Siegfried, Oct 28, 2003
  17. Circuitrider

    Circuitrider <img src=/circuitrider2.JPG>
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    Funny but I did not have any problem reading or understanding that "outdated English" text. :D

    Remember that earliest does not always mean best. The corruptions of the text began with writings in the first century. Biblical Christians of that day would have used the true writings of the Apostles and the resulting accurate copies, while the bad copies of the heretics would have been set aside, thereby making more possible their preservation. [​IMG]
     
    #17 Circuitrider, Oct 28, 2003
  18. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    Of course, that argues for just the opposite result of what you are thinking! The ease of preservation comes from having a set of documents in Greek, being copied over and over until hundreds of inaccurate copies are kept by the Greek-speaking Byzantine Orthodox. Perpetuated errors in hundres of copies!

    While other were little copied, soon replaced by Latin and simply put into storage. THOSE copies would have a greater tendency to be accurate to the originals than the later copies of copies of copies of copies inserting words and verses, etc.

    The more I study the situation, the more I realize the FOLLY of the TRO position (and the subsequent heresy it spawned of KJVO).

    Hey, Maranatha grads don't have to agree!
     
    #18 Dr. Bob, Oct 28, 2003
  19. superdave

    superdave New Member

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    Hey, I was just being funny, not wanting to start down that path! I really don't view either position as fully tenable, I am just grateful for the multitude of texts that really for the most part have little or no variance when it comes to actual meaning. That is what can give us confidence that unlike most other languages today, we have several translations in the English that are accurate, and true to the intent of the author. To support my position, I will take scripture out of context like the KJVO's (II Tim 3:16 is their favorite) Here's mine. "In the multitude of counsellors there is safety" :D ;)

    Since the issue is a non-issue at MBBC, or at least that is the intent of former and current administrations, it shouldn't have to be among the alumni either.
     
    #19 superdave, Oct 29, 2003
  20. Askjo

    Askjo New Member

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    Most naturalistic scholars/writers often said TR is inferior to the modern texts, but what is the TRUTH ? Hide it? Agree with man's words (Proverbs 30:6) against the TR or agree with God (John 17:8)? Choose man or this Scripture? Which one?

    Remember important verse for ALL pastors!

    Jeremiah 23:1 (KJV) Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD.

    Repent ye now!
     
    #20 Askjo, Oct 30, 2003
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