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Mechanics of a Perfect Translation

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by John of Japan, May 4, 2007.

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  1. franklinmonroe

    franklinmonroe Active Member

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    Despite all the evidence that has been brought forth in this forum, are you going to continue to use the "God forbid" idiom as an clear KJV error? Why stop with this one while many versions use non-literal renderings of Greek and Hebrew idioms? Here is an example from last night's sermon at my church--
    And he prayed unto the LORD, and said, I pray thee, O LORD, [was] not this my saying, when I was yet in my country? Therefore I fled before unto Tarshish: for I knew that thou [art] a gracious God, and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repentest thee of the evil. (Jonah 4:2, KJV)​
    The words "slow to anger" represent a Hebraic idiom partly comprised of the word 'aph (Strong's #0639) which literally means nose, or nostrils. Here is the translator's note from the NET version--
    “long of nostrils.” Because the nose often expresses anger through flared nostrils it became the source of this idiom meaning “slow to anger” (e.g., Exod 34:6; Num 14:18; Neh 9:17; Pss 86:15; 103:8; 145:8; Jer 15:15; Nah 1:3; BDB 74 s.v.).​

    "Slow to anger" or similar is the manner in which most versions translate this idiom, so are they all wrong? Of course not; literal translation of idioms would make much of scripture incomprehensible for standard contemporary reading. "God forbid" was not an improper rendering.
     
  2. Gold Dragon

    Gold Dragon Well-Known Member

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    It is always a pleasure to read your insightful posts, JoJ! :thumbs:
     
  3. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    My prayers are with you John, as well. But here is a word of caution: there is no perfect translation, and there will never be one. Here are some things the translator has to wrestle with:

    1. the language barrier, moving from the original languages to another, given the cultural and historical separation.

    2. the variant readings, which word or phrase?

    3. it is simply not God's will. It is misleading to think that we can arrive at a perfect translation. It has never been done. Are we more godly and scholarly than saints of the past?

    With those three things in mind, press on my brother and God will bless your efforts.
     
  4. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Why thank you, friend! My main goal on the BB is to be a blessing. :wavey:
     
  5. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Actually, my OP was intended to be gently tongue in cheek, but everyone decided to encourage me and pray for me instead of biting on that! And how can I complain about that? I have been really blessed by the responses, including yours. So thanks to you and everyone else!
    Exactly. This is the most difficult part of translating the Word of God, something secular translators rarely have to deal with. Uncle Miya and I (and our editors) often struggle with how directly to transport the 1st century into 21st century Japan.

    There are some interesting parallels between the koine Greek and modern Japanese, such as the fact that the Japanese adjective can function as a verb, and the koine adjective has a predicate function. However, it is impossible to completely convey all of the Greek meaning into Japanese.

    I'm reminded of the guy who wrote Wycliffe once and told them he would be happy to translate the Bible into a tribal language for them. Just send him a dictionary of the language and he'd be ready to go! :laugh:
    Actually, this is not a major problem to me. Personally, I consider textual criticism to be a very difficult discipline even for one good in Greek. My advice to would be translators who are not well-versed in textual criticism is that they choose their Greek text and stick to it. We have far too many amateurs running around writing books about the Greek texts!
    My goal in this thread was to convey the fact that a perfect translation would have to be a miracle from Heaven! And I find no such miracle promised in the Word of God. My position (and I've done a BB thread on it before) is that God has given into our hands the process of preservation. His Word is forever settled in Heaven as the Bible says, but down here we believers are responsible for preservation: textual criticism, translation, hiding His Word in our hearts, etc. He will help and guide us, of course, but the process of translation is long and laborious. I estimate that I have already put close to 2000 hours into the work, and there is much to be done still.

    It would take too long to delineate all of this doctrine of human preservation here, but briefly: in the OT, the priests were given the primary task of preserving the Word of God (such as the Decalogue in the ark), though a king was to write our his own copy of the Law. We are the priests of the NT age.
    Thanks for the kind wishes. :wavey:
     
  6. EdSutton

    EdSutton New Member

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    Praying for you, John, even though I had not previously mentioned it.

    Ed
     
  7. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    Well, that is encouraging, when you have some much affinities from the mother tongue to the receptor tongue. It should prove to be an enjoyable task.

    I agree. Textual criticism is indeed an arduous discipline. It requires many hours and precision, but you seem to be heading in the right direction.

    I am in toto agreement. God is still at working, preserving his Word. God bless, John.
     
    #27 TCGreek, May 8, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: May 8, 2007
  8. Salamander

    Salamander New Member

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    So you are saying God is imperfect that he cannot relate His Divine intent due to the fallacies of men?

    I don't think that is God's problem but man's problems.
    satan has always insisted upon variations to the word of God. It's simple, what is in perfect harmony with all other Scripture?

    I would be quick to avoid this kind of thinking, unless you like to accuse God of not having a perfect will for all men.

    To the 2nd part of # 3, you answered that by your question: yes ( in your opinion)

    Press on toward the prize of the mark of the high calling of God. Stop demanding a literal word for word translation and solely depend upon the harmony of Scripture to be your guide. Why? Because God isn't confused about His Word. His Spirit guides into all truth, not partial truth.:praying:
     
  9. Salamander

    Salamander New Member

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    JofJ:
    :laugh: How could anyone possibly come to this conclusion?
    Can't the complete meaning of Greek be conveyed into English? Can't that English then be conveyed completely into Japanese? If either of those two questions are answered by "no" then everyone is wasting their time.

    I'm not demeaning your statements, just offering some reasoning.
     
  10. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Sal, ya know full well that no one language will translate 100% perfectly into another. If ya dispute that, then take it up with GOD, who made'em all.
     
  11. Salamander

    Salamander New Member

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    Sure it can or we can't know the mind of God as He grants it.
     
  12. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Thank you brother!:wavey:
     
  13. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    To give you just one example, Greek has definite articles--many of them. The Japanese language has no definite articles--none of them. So it is usually difficult to impossible to convey the Greek definite article into Japanese.
     
  14. Salamander

    Salamander New Member

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    OK, explain the definitive article in the Greek in English, then describe the same from English into Japanese.
     
  15. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    That would end up being dynamic equivalence translation, and I don't believe in that.

    Question, Salamander: do you know any foreign languages? (I'm not talking about high school Spanish here.) If you do you will understand more about the actual process of translating.

    Truth can be translated. Every single truth, every single doctrine of the KJV NT will be translated into Japanese in our version. What is difficult to translate is nuance. For example, poetry has a lot of nuance. It is extremely difficult to translate the subtleties of poetry. Do you understand what I'm saying here?

    If you know a foreign language you will understand. If you don't, I suggest you listen rather than pontificate.
     
  16. Salamander

    Salamander New Member

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    No pontification here. I do understand that many things must use dynamic equivelence to convey the meaning from one language into another.

    Commerce works in that very fashion.

    Once you overcome the language barrier due to cultural differences, communication between two languages becomes quite easy.

    Incorporating a third language is very useful and even mandatory in most situations.

    Now if you want to continue to exalt yourself in the hierarchy of language differences be my guest, but it won't get you very far.

    You did not answer my question, you only attempted to raise yourself above my person.

    I respect what you are attempting to accomplish, but I don't respect your condescention on my behalf.

    How is it you explain Greek to an English speaking audience and on the same hand explain English into Japanese but yet cannot explain Greek into Japanese?

    You want my applause?:applause:
     
  17. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    Sal, the issue is not what God is able to do; it is what he has allowed in his sovereign will. Neither do we want to butt our heads over God's sovereignty and human will. The autographs of the biblical writers were perfect, no human defects.

    The issue is not with the original writings of the apostles. The issue is with translation, from one language to another. Even the Septuagint that Jesus and the apostles quoted from reflects some syntactical changes to the Hebrew text. Yet, Jesus and the apostles quoted from it.

    John, I know what you mean when you say you don't believe in dynamic equivalence, but every version from the KJV to the NASB and ESV has employed some of it. As a translator you have to. That is one of the difficulties in moving from the original to the receptor tongue.

    For those of us who are schooled properly in textual criticism know that what we have are copies upon copies, but they bear faithful witness to the true word of God.
     
  18. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    So the answer is you don't know a foreign language, right? :smilewinkgrin: I'm sure you are my superior in many ways, but have you spent two years full time studying a language? Until you have, I'll stick to what I said.

    Now, which question was it you say I didn't answer?
     
  19. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    We have a different view of dynamic equivalence. I view it as a new development, not an old method. In my view it is not simply "thought for thought" translating or paraphrasing but emphasizing reader comprehension over author intent, and that is something I will not do.
     
  20. Salamander

    Salamander New Member

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    Wow, TC, we agree!!!!

    A literal translation in word for word is impossible. Dynamic equivelence has and will always be incorporated into tranlating one language into another.

    I don't claim to be any authority on the matter, just using plain common sense.

    A boy rides a blue bicycle down the street.

    A boy on a blue bicycle rides down the street.

    On the street, a boy rides a blue bicycle.

    The three statements all run true though worded differently. The only "difference" would be in the third statement: the definitve "down" is not used. The cultural exchange would be understood that the street goes up and down, but the interpretation would be best understood that the boy rode his blue bicycle away from the point of view of the observer making the statement.

    Dynamic equivelence would have to be then incorporated to show in the last example the difference between which direction the rider was going on the blue bicycle.

    No beating the head against the wall, just using my peabrain.
     
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