Mel Gibson's Catholicism

We're all out getting our court passes for when the case is tried.

 

The Church’s teaching has always been that Jesus freely went to the cross . There was never any doctrine that His death was the fault of the Jews. Jesus came as the Savior to die on the cross for our sins. The Church’s creeds have never taught collective guilt of the Jews, ( the Baltimore Catechism written in 1891 did not teach His death was the fault of the Jews. I went to Catholic schools in the 1950’s and was not taught His death is the fault of the Jewish people. There are bigots in all faiths___the wheat and the chaff.. In the 60’s in Vatican II the Church is saying any bigotry towards the Jews is not supported by the teaching of the Church. There was no change in doctrine.


Some Jews (many) believe Christians blame them for the death of Jesus Christ. It is now, because of Vatican II, the “official teaching” of the church that there is no collective blame or guilt for Jews or their descendents. Would the Jewish leaders like to get all Christians churches to make statements to this effect? Yes. But, it is not going to happen.

Vatican II stated : “The church always held and continues to hold that Christ out of infinite love freely underwent suffering and death because of the sins of all, so that all might attain salvation.”

Jewish groups are upset that any film is being made about the death of Jesus Christ. From what I have heard some say, they believe it will stir up ant-Semitism. The American bishops it appears are concerned too. It doesn't help that Mel Gibson's father seems to not believe the Holocaust happened. I don't know Mel Gibson's personal beliefs about the Jews, but the Jewish leaders and the Catholic bishops are concerned.

God Bless

 

Why argue about Mel Gibson's opinion. Just read the scriptures.

The Jews claim responsibility for the death of Christ:

Matthew
27:24 When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it.

27:25 Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.

Apostle Peter blamed the Jews who crucified christ;

Acts
2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

But this is not the reason that we should hate the Jews. We have to pray for them and reach them by the gospel of Jesus Christ. Though it is their fault God used it for the benefit of the whole world. Just like the life of Joseph. His brethren had the fault when they sold him to Egypt. But God used this for the benefit of the whole tribe.

 

"But Jesus was saying, "Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing." Luke 23:34

God Bless

[ June 11, 2003, 12:00 AM: Message edited by: Kathryn ]

 

quote:
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27:25 Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.
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That's correct! they will be forgiven after they repent of their sins and received Jesus as their Messiah or the christ.

Acts
2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.


:

 

Faithcontender:

Jesus asked God to forgive them for what they did to Him right then and there, not later if they become Christians. That is of course if we stick with Holy Scripture. Jesus taught us how to do this in the "Our Father Prayer". Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us. No strings attached. This is what Jesus did on the cross. This does not mean they were guaranteed entry into heaven. You are mixing salvation and collective guilt.

You say the Jews accepted collective guilt for themselves and their children. It is true they said this. Jesus forgiving those who trespased against Him would have cleared their descendents of any guilt. The Jews born today were not there. There is no collective guilt.

If you believe in this "collective guilt" for generation upon generation, then we better all start opening our pocket books up for "slavery reparations". It is coming.

God Bless

 

I do not blame the present Jews for crucifying the Lord. I hinted that those Jews who crucify the Lord were guilty as Apostle Peter told them.
It is true that Jesus prayed for their forgiveness for their crime against Him. But their greatest sin is their rejection of the risen Christ. And therefore their sins will not be forgiven.

Only those who believe in Christ are forgiven in their sins. And anyone who doesn't believe in Him will perish in their sins.

John 8:24
8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

 

Regardless of what the RCC officially teaches, the priests teach what they want and the laity (that I know) hate the Jews.

 

What a contemptible slander. However, you have led me to a small personal revelation:

"Look for the Church most slandered, most defamed, most lied about, most hated, and you will find the Church created by Christ."

For that revelation I am grateful.

 

Whatever. My point was/is that other than on the Internet, all the Catholics I know hate the Jews and call them "Christ-killers." You guys on here don't, but then again, you probably attend mass more regularly, etc. You're not the average run of the mill Catholics - they wouldn't get on religious discussion boards. You are a tad bit more spiritual than they and in my opinion have lost touch with reality (that is the reality of what they are like).

 

Why do the catholic church changed their stand concerning the Jews? In the past, the catholic church treat them as heretics. And during the Holocaust the pope keep silent when they were masaccred by Hitler.

Why sudden change? Why do they want to treat them well?

 

You are wrong. Go do more research:

http://www.piusxiipope.info/

The Pope did not stand by and ignore what went on with Hitler.


LaRae

 

Nothing like tarring everyone with the same brush. I suppose if I use your standard I can make all kinds of wild claims about ANY religion.

You need to expand your horizions. I am on more than one forum where a large number of Catholics hang out and I have yet to see ANY Catholic behave this way you are alledging.

I have been around Catholics in different parts of the US also and NEVER run into this type of behavior.


LaRae

 

Sorry but the Jews believed other stories.

http://jewishsf.com/bk000317/1apopechastised.shtml

 

Sola:

http://members.aol.com/johnjrh/pius.html

[ June 12, 2003, 01:07 PM: Message edited by: Kathryn ]

 

Sola:

The famous scientist, Albert Einstein, was reported in Time magazine (Dec.23, 1940)to have said:

Golda Meir, Israeli representative to the U.N. and future prime minister of Israel, said:

Did the Catholic Church do more than any other church or institution on earth? Yes. Do many Jews believe Catholics and the rest of the should have done more? yes.

[ June 12, 2003, 01:06 PM: Message edited by: Kathryn ]

 

Sola:
Here are some Catholic Martyrs of the Holocaust who do not fit your stereotype of Jew-Haters:


 Blessed Teresa Bracco (1924-1944) -- Italian Citizen (Santa Giulia).
 Blessed Titus Brandsma (1881-1942) -- Carmelite priest (Dachau).
 Blessed Marcel Callo (1921-1945) -- Jocist layman (Mathausen).
 Blessed Jozef Cebula(1902-1941) -- Oblate priest (Mathausen)
 Blessed Stefan Wicenty Frelichowski (1913-1945) -- Polish pastor (Dachau)
 Blessed Jakob Gapp (1897-1943) -- Marianist priest (Ploetzensee).
 Blessed Nikolaus Gross (1898-1945) -- Lay editor (Ploetzensee).
 Blessed Jozef Jankowski (1910-1941) -- Pallotine priest (Auschwitz)
 Blessed Hilary Januszewski (1907-1945) -- Carmelite priest (Dachau)
 Blessed Helene Kafka (1894-1943) -- Franciscan nun (Vienna).
 Saint Maximilian Kolbe (1894-1941) -- Franciscan priest (Auschwitz).
 Blessed Michal Kozal (1893-1943) -- Polish bishop (Dachau).
 Blessed Karl Leisner (1915-1945) -- German priest (Dachau).
 Blessed Bernhard Lichtenberg (1875-1943) -- German monsignor (Dachau).
 Blessed Alphonsus Mary Mazurek (1891-1944) -- Polish Carmelite (Nawojowa Gora)
 Blessed Otto Neururer (1882-1940) -- Austrian priest (Buchenwald).
 Blessed Anastazy Jakub Pankiewicz (1882-1942) -- Franciscan priest (Dachau)
 Blessed Julia Rodzinska (1899-1944) -- Dominican nun (Stutthof)
 Blessed Jozef Stanek (1916-1944) -- Pallotine priest (Warsaw)
 Blessed Boleslaw Strzelecki (1896-1941) -- priest of Radom (Auschwitz)
 Saint Edith Stein (1891-1942) -- Carmelite nun (Auschwitz). On the same day of her death, August 9, 1942, there also perished at Auschwitz Rosa Stein (1883-1942), her sister, and six members of the Loeb Family all Trappists (three nuns, two priests, and one brother).
 108 Polish Martyrs of World War II (1939-1945): Among them were Anton Julian Nowowiejski (1858-1941), an aged archbishop who died in the German death camp at Dzialdowo, where he refused to step on a crucifix; Henryk Kaczorowski (1888-1942), seminary rector at Wloclawek; Ewa Noiszewka (1885-1942) and Marta Wolowska (1879-1942), two Sisters of the Immaculate Conception who were executed at Gora Pietrelewicka in Slonim for hiding Jewish childlren; and Maria Anna Biernacka (1888-1943), one of nine lay persons (she was a benefactress of the Redemptorists in Warsaw) who chose to be executed (she was shot on 13 July 1943 near Grodno) to save her unborn grand child. These were beatified along with George Kaszyra (1904-1943) and Anthony Leszczewicz (1890-1943), Marian priests, (they perished among some 1,500 victims burned alive by the Nazis in Roscia, Belarus, on 17-18 February 1943), whose causes had been opened, on 26 January 1992 in Poland. On June 13, 1999,Pope John Paul II beatified them (including two other bishops, Wladyslaw Goral (1898-1945) and Leon Wetmanski (1886-1941) and many priests, like Jozef Pawlowski (1890-1942) in Kielce and Zygmunt Pisarski (1902-1943) in Lublin, who risked his life to help Jews; and religious, among them Capuchins like Anciet Koplinski (1875-1941); Franciscans like Bruno Zembol (1905-1942), and Salesians like Jozef Kowalski (1911-1942), who died at Auschwitz, not to mention nuns like Maria Antonina Kratochwil (1881-1942), a member of the School Sisters of Notre Dame (she helped Jewish girls in prison), and Maria Klemensa Staszewska (1890-1943), executed at Auschwitz because she hid Jewish girls in a convent. While fifteen of those victims were martyred at Auschwitz and forty-three at Dachau, among the others beatified were also five young Catholic men, The Martyrs of Poznan, who were associated with the Salesians were beheaded at Dresden for their part in resistance activities: Czeslaw Jozwiak (1919-1942), Edward Kazmierski (1919-1942), Edward Klinik (1919-1942), Franciszek Kesy (1920-1942), and Jarogniew Wojciechowski (1922-1942). Although at least eighty Polish Jesuits were martyred by the Nazis, none was included among the thirty-three religious beatified that day. However, it is expected that they will be included in a special ceremony at a future date when the preparation of their causes is concluded.
 Emilian Kovtch (1884-1944), a priest from the Ukrainian Eparchy of Stanislaviv (Ivano-Frankivsk) who died in ovens of Majdanek (Poland) concentration camp, as a victim of the Nazis in 1944, is scheduled for beatification in Pope John Paul II's trip to the Ukraine in June 2001.


God Bless

 

Sola:

Being Catholic doesn't mean being a Jew-hater.

Jews in Catholic Ireland :

God Bless

[ June 12, 2003, 02:57 PM: Message edited by: Kathryn ]

 

Sola:

I don't want to monopolize the whole thread with what the Catholic Church and Catholics individually did for Jews during WWII. But your charges of Catholics being jew haters is deplorable.

Did you know that the chief Rabbi at the Vatican converted to Catholicism after WWII? I guess not. That is another excellent story.

Or how about Maximillian Kolbe? How he offered to take the place of a Jewish man, who had children, who was chosen to be killed.

http://www.kolbenet.com/kolbe/