Messianic Jew's and Shabbat

Let this be a warning to you: Consider what I have told you in earnest and in a humble spirit; for it has dawned on you as a judgement the hour of which has come for you.

 

BR:
"BY CONTRAST (I have already pointed out a zillion times) that GOD SAID "THEREFORE THE LORD BLESSED the SABBATH day and MADE IT HOLY" and when we LOOK at the THEREFORE - we find NO MENTION AT ALL of the FALL of Adam given as the REASON leading up to that THEREFORE!!"

GE:
And how many zillions of times have you read Mark 2:27?

 

BR:
"And that is pretty amazing given that you claim to honor and Keep the day better than he!!!"

GE:
Another of your 'bogus', false and unfair accusations ... or rather ... presuppositions. It seems it frightens you the very thought anyone else than a Seventh Day Adventist might believe or keep God's Sabbath Day.

I claim no better keeping of the Sabbath than the grossest breaker of it! God forgive me this awful sinner! Nevertheless, Moody was a Sunday-keeper, if that in your mind makes of him a Sabbath-keeper. In my mind, it does! Yes, even his Sunday-keeping was, I believe to God, an acceptable Sabbath-keeping, because he honestly and sincereky meant it well, and according to the best of his knowledge and understanding, based upon evangelical REASON. Moody as much as he based the Sabbath upon the Fourth Commandment, also based it upon Jesus' resurrection. I only say, Moody was right as far as the principle was concerned; he was wrong only in so far he mistook the day of Sunday for God's Seventh Day Sabbath. You, BobRyan, today, no longer finds yourself in any position of ignorance as to the basic reason for adhering to the Seventh Day Sabbath. But to despise this fundamental grounds of it in no way differs with rejecting the sabbath altogether. For no Sabbath remaineth for the People of God except the Sabbath based upon what Jesus had done through and in rising from the dead again.

 

GE - every once in a while - you say something I agree with.

Credit - where credit is due.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Indeed "The Sabbath was MADE for MANKIND" speaking of Gen 2:3 showing the Sabbath BEFORE the Gen 3 event of the FALL of mankind!

And as we see in Exodus 20:8-11 God says "GOD RESTED.. THEREFORE the LORD BLESSED the Sabbath day and made it holy".

It does not say "MANKIND FELL THEREFORE God gave mankind the Sabbath as a promise that Christ would come and save Adam's family" as you so love to "imagine" the text would say.

As for me - I prefer to stick with the Word of God on this one. Especially in those areas where D.L Moody does it too -

In Christ,

Bob

 

Do one thing that actually makes sense for a change. POINT to any post you ever made (prior to my dragging this out of you in the past month or so) where you actually came out and said "ADAM FELL on Day 6 of creation week".

You seem to be so happy about the fact that I now finally-at long last - understand you to have imagined such a thing. But for the sake of integrity - point out all those times when you said that very thing in the past but I kept glossing over it.

I truly am curious on this point.

In Christ,

Bob

 

BR:
"Do one thing that actually makes sense for a change. POINT to any post you ever made (prior to my dragging this out of you in the past month or so) where you actually came out and said "ADAM FELL on Day 6 of creation week".

GE:
YOU, point to any post you, have ever made where you, actually have proved that Adam fell AFTER, day 6 of creation week.

 

In other words, show ONE day in the Scriptures in the life of Adam without his fall.

 

The very first beginning of any day ever in the history of creation we READ of, that is, the first evening after sunset we READ of, and Adam WAS a sinner!

But this is not, and never has been, the crux of 'my', doctrine. I have always tried to make salvation that centre and the essence of my every thought about the things of God and of grace. That of course every second of the way, because of its awsome and fearful scope, leaves me open for gross mistake. I still prefer it above yours which is so accurate and distinct it looks and tastes and digests like a cut diamond.

 

Day six. It ENDS with "And God saw that IT WAS GOOD" --

See? The Bible actually has value if you simply accept it instead of "making stuff up"!!

In Christ,

Bob

 

11 "" For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

 

GE:
Day six in this Scripture tells how GOD, 'ended' the sixth day; it doesn't say how ADAM, ended it!
Besides: who says God did not as it were also looked forward to the provision He had made for man's fall through Jesus Christ, and found what He had made was all, "very good" --- yet, not, "perfect" or "finished" or "blessed" or "sanctified" with the very last and perfecting finishing and blessing and sanctifying and rest of all God had done through and in Jesus Christ?

 

BobRyan separates the two creation stories. That divides the times in which they happened. So the two must speak of two creations.
Or the two stories tell the same tale of creation, but from different viewpoints -- which make them cover the same period in time : The first seven days of the creation of God. Then place Adam's fall without the scope of these first seven days?

What meaning could the Seventh Day's works of God have seeing they were not works of creating any further, they having been finished on the sixth day already? THESE WORKS OF GOD's REST OF THE SEVENTH DAY ARE REDEMPTION-WORKS BY NATURE; WORKS OF GOD HE ONLY WOULD AND ONLY HAD DONE THROUGH AND IN THE SON, JESUS CHRIST. All the works of God of the Seventh Day - His works of rest - otherwise would be senseless and without substance or truth!

It all adds up to the inevitable conclusion that Adam sinned on his first day of life.

 

I don't fight too much on this issue as I believe it belongs to the matter of Romans 14:5-6.
SDA do well in fighting against Whorish Roman Catholic, while many true Protestant believers are lazy or coward fighting the paganism and idolatry, and are disobedient to keep the commandments of the Lord.
But I believe it too much excessive and wrong if SDA claim the salvation is dependent on the keeping the law or lose the salvation if the born-again believers fail to keep the Law.
This applies to the Messianic Jews as well.
I meet Messianic Jews who are Faithful Torah Keepers and find no problem with them except some small issues.

 

Romans 14 says "one man OBSERVES one day above another while another man OBSERVES every day".

The ONLY days given for OBSERVANCE to God's People were listed in Lev 23. The annual feast days. In that chapter ANYONE in the NT wanting to follow OT rules would have found a "list of days to OBSERVE".

Hence - Romans 14 says nothing about the Seventh-day Sabbath.

this point has been highlighted EVEN by non-Sabbath keeping Bible scholars as I have pointed out on this board.

In Christ,

Bob

 

GE -

Never would I argue that we have TWO chronological sequences in Gen 1 and 2 -- we have only ONE!! It is found in Gen 1-2:3 with a specific sequence framed in literal explicit time units!

The Gen 2:5 through Gen 3 story is not given in a defined timeline and covers events BOTH in day 3 and in Day 6 and going beyond.

God does not view the fall of mankind and "call it good" as you seem to imagine.

In Exodus 20 God gives us the "THEREFORE" of WHY He blessed and sanctified the Sabbath for mankind. "THEREFORE the Lord BLESSED the Sabbath AND made it holy" - and the text says NOTHING about "Mankind fell and God wanted a symbol of salvation THEREFORE God blessed the Sabbath day AND made it holy" as you have often imagined.

Failing to find your teaching in scripture you willingly "make stuff up"

And in that we see a clear explanation of our differences on this point.

In Christ,

Bob

 

GE:
Yes, BobRyan, I accept what you have here said.
Butit is not here that this pericope from Ro14 ends; it pauses in verse 9, wherein an implication of the Sabbath is made with these three words,
'died and rose AND REVIVED' - a CLEAR 'quotation' from Ex31:17, "He rested and was REFRESHED". This you refuse to acknowledge just because it relates the Resurrection with the Sabbath Day. What dry Sabbath you have!

 

What did it mean where God commanded that the People should "observe" the Sabbath and the Feast Days? Did it mean no to work? No, it meant: Pay attention to! What for, pay attention? NOTHING, but to notice that in these things, reference is being made to the coming Messiah, and to what He would and eventually had accomplished: The rest of God in Christ. Now if not herein, one is able to see the resurrection of the Messiah from the dead, one is totally blind to its meaning - blind blind blind!

 

BR:
"In Exodus 20 God gives us the "THEREFORE" of WHY He blessed and sanctified the Sabbath for mankind. "THEREFORE the Lord BLESSED the Sabbath AND made it holy" - and the text says NOTHING about "Mankind fell and God wanted a symbol of salvation THEREFORE God blessed the Sabbath day AND made it holy" as you have often imagined."

GE:
You and I have often before debated on this very issue. Here again, you only see what pleases you, turning a blind I to what in this offends you. Why don't you quote faithfully? Why do you quote unfaithfully?

Ex31:13, "Verily my Sabbaths ye shall keep: For it is a SIGN between Me and you throughout your generations; that ye MAY KNOW, that I AM the LORD that doeth sanctify you. Ye shall keep the Sabbath THEREFORE; for it holy unto you. ... Six days may work be done, but in the Seventh Day the Sabbath of Rest Holy to the Lord."
This one text. The others say the same: Because GOD, "RESTED the Seventh Day", "therefore ...". It does not say -nowhere!- 'Because in six days God created, therefore ...'.

But you deny the Sabbath is a sign - is 'symbolic'; You deny it is a covenant sign - that points to Christ and has to do with EVERYTHING in the life of Christ and especially with His eventually finding the true rest of God through resurrection from the dead and the saving of all the works of God. "Holy-to-the-Lord" : Who is it? It is Christ, and Christ, in resurrection from the dead. That you deny, despising it obstnately.

 

Were you to recognise and acknowledge this essential nature of the first Sabbath Day - the Seventh Day of God's creating - then you are forced to believe its 'grace'-nature -- which again would implie acknowledgement of man's sin before the Sabbath's beginning. "Where sin abounded, grace did much more abound". God on the Seventh "COMPLETED", "FILLED" with grace due to sin that had entered already. Grace had been before sin had entered, yet had not been revealed until after sin had entered. If the Sabbath be of grace, sin had been before it. And of grace the Sabbath has been always, so that by grace are you saved, through faith; it is the gift of God.
If I may not find Christ in and through the Sabbath Day of Genesis 2-3, I might better be without it. And what shall I find Christ in it for, were I not a sinner?