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Messianic Kingdom

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by OldRegular, Nov 6, 2008.

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  1. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Dispensationalists argue that Jesus Christ came to offer the earthly Messianic Kingdom, that His offer was rejected and that He instituted the parenthesis form of the Kingdom, the Church, instead. Can someone or anyone show one passage of Scripture where Jesus Christ definitively offered an earthly Messianic Kingdom to the Jews? Or am I just:BangHead: :BangHead:
     
    #1 OldRegular, Nov 6, 2008
  2. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    Huh? Jesus (and as He instructed His disciples) preached the Kingdom "at hand", a valid statement of time/place. About 120 times in the Gospels. Check the concordance.
     
    #2 Dr. Bob, Nov 6, 2008
  3. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Isa 9:6-7 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
    For vnto vs a childe is borne, and vnto vs a Sonne is giuen: and the gouernement is vpon his shoulder, and he shall call his name Wonderfull, Counseller, The mightie God, The euerlasting Father, The prince of peace,
    7 The increase of his gouernement and peace shall haue none end: he shall sit vpon the throne of Dauid, and vpon his kingdome, to order it, and to stablish it with iudgement and with iustice, from hencefoorth, euen for euer: the zeale of the Lord of hostes will performe this.
     
    #3 Ed Edwards, Nov 6, 2008
  4. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
    Isa 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.


    I posted this translation for those of us who read english.
     
    #4 Revmitchell, Nov 7, 2008
  5. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    How about Acts 1:6 whereby even the disciples/apostles asked Jesus if He was going to restore the Kingdom (Messianic) again to ISRAEL? This is a direct reference to this teaching of the OT and the Jesus declarations.

    Here is the Acts 1:6 passage in whatever form you personally like:

    Jesus did not ignore them nor did He give them a non-answer as some presume. He told them that the Kingdom being restored is the Fathers business but theirs (and ours) was to worry about what we have been given the power/authority to do - be His witnesses, and not worry about 'when' the restoration of the Kingdom to Israel will be. It will come when God deems it is time according to His plan when it shall be restored again to Israel.
     
    #5 Allan, Nov 7, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 7, 2008
  6. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Please, when you post scripture in BB, please tell us which Bible (or on-line place) you are using to get your scripture. I am required by God to check out each scripture that I run across on the BB to see if it really is what is supposed to be in the Written Word of God. Here is my call:

    Act 17:10-11 KJV1611 Edition, e-sword Edition):
    And the brethren immediatly sent away Paul and Silas by night vnto Berea: who comming thither, went into the Synagogue of the Iewes.
    11 These were more noble then those in Thessalonica, in that they receiued the word with all readinesse of minde, and searched the Scriptures dayly, whether those things were so.

    Help your Brothers & Sister fullfill the Command of God: list your Scripture source(s). Thank you for your help.

    Thank you Brother Allen for sharing your scripture sources with us.
     
    #6 Ed Edwards, Nov 7, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 7, 2008
  7. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    I bet ya most folks can look at that and tell immediately from which it came from.
     
    #7 Revmitchell, Nov 7, 2008
  8. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Yes! But what kingdom was He preaching?:sleeping_2:
     
    #8 OldRegular, Nov 7, 2008
  9. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    By the way I think I have more translations of Acts than you but they do not answer the question. I will pose the question again for those who did not read it the first time.

    "Dispensationalists argue that Jesus Christ came to offer the earthly Messianic Kingdom, that His offer was rejected and that He instituted the parenthesis form of the Kingdom, the Church, instead. Can someone or anyone show one passage of Scripture where Jesus Christ definitively offered an earthly Messianic Kingdom to the Jews? Or am I just :BangHead: :BangHead: "

    I believe I am just :BangHead: :BangHead:
     
    #9 OldRegular, Nov 7, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 7, 2008
  10. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Should I assume that no one on this forum is able to answer my question?:thumbs: Or am I still:BangHead: :BangHead: :BangHead:
     
    #10 OldRegular, Nov 7, 2008
  11. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    Apparently you choose to look with blind eyes.

    If you can't handle the truth don't ask for it. The disciples were looking for the Kingdom of Israel to be restored again (also known as the Messianic Kingdom in Prophesy) to them based upon the both the promises of God in the OT and Jesus own Teachings in the NT. They were LOOKING for it and asking Jesus if that TIME is NOW. It is most important to notice also (for context of the question asked in verse 6) that their question comes ONLY after Jesus was teaching about the Kingdom of God in verse 3.
    Thus we find their (all the disciples whom He was teaching) next question AFTER His teaching on the thing pertaining to the Kingdom of God, to be "Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?"

    Others have given support of other verses as well. I would suggest getting some other (theological) 'glasses' that will allow you to see what is blatently before you.
     
    #11 Allan, Nov 7, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 7, 2008
  12. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    It is you who choose to look with blind eyes. Perhaps you cannot handle the truth. In my OP I ask a simple question as follows:

    Can someone or anyone show one passage of Scripture where Jesus Christ definitively offered an earthly Messianic Kingdom to the Jews?

    No one has answered that question. Not one verse of Scripture has been identified where Jesus Christ definitively offered an earthly Messianic Kingdom to the Jews. Yet dispensationalists argue that He did make such an offer, that the Jews rejected the offer, and He established the Church as an "intercalculation" or as a parenthesis form of the Kingdom. Please respond with Scripture rather than snide remarks.

    The Jews ask Jesus Christ if "the time is now" prior to His ascension. He had died and raised from the dead for the Church so the Scripture you are quoting is not relevant since according to dispensationalists the Jews had already rejected the offer which no one can find. It is also worth noting

    1]the Apostle Paul's remarks regarding Jesus Christ's death for the Church
    2]the Apostle Paul's remarks to the Jews regarding their blindness
    3]the Scripture declaration that Paul was preaching the Kingdom of God.

    Acts20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

    Acts 28:25-31
    25. And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
    26. Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
    27. For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
    28. Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
    29. And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves.
    30. And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him,
    31. Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.
     
    #12 OldRegular, Nov 7, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 7, 2008
  13. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    I think the disciples were asking Jesus when the "nation" of Israel (the kingdom) would be freed from Roman rule and rulership returned to Israel. I don't think they understood the "Kingdom of God" that Jesus referred to.
    That's how I read it anyway.
     
    #13 Amy.G, Nov 7, 2008
  14. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Amy

    There is not a single passage of Scripture where Jesus Christ offered an earthly Messianic Kingdom and no one has yet been able to present such Scripture. The Kingdom that Jesus Christ offered was a Kingdom that was not of this world as shown in the following Scripture.

    John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

    Perhaps someone can refute the above Scripture.
     
    #14 OldRegular, Nov 7, 2008
  15. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    I was agreeing with you. :)
     
    #15 Amy.G, Nov 7, 2008
  16. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    I know you were Amy and I really appreciate that you were. :applause: I have participated in your excellent Topics.

    I am just frustrated that all the dispensationalists on this forum are unable [or unwilling] to come up with the Scripture where Jesus Christ offered an earthly Messianic Kingdom to the Jews.:BangHead: :BangHead: The Jews refusal of such an offer provides the justification for dispensational error.
     
    #16 OldRegular, Nov 7, 2008
  17. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    Oops. I thought you had misunderstood me. My bad.

    What do the OT prophecies have to say about the Kingdom that Jesus spoke of? I think I'll do some research.
     
    #17 Amy.G, Nov 7, 2008
  18. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    OldRegular, post #12):
    // It is you who choose to look with blind eyes. Perhaps you cannot handle the truth. In my OP I ask a simple question as follows:

    Can someone or anyone show one passage of Scripture where Jesus Christ definitively offered an earthly Messianic Kingdom to the Jews?//

    Ed's short history of the first 24-hours of this Topic: Messianic Kingdom (16 posts). (number of actual on-topic posts are denoted as bold)

    #1 - OldRegular asks simple question.
    #2 - Dr. Bob blows OldRegular's simple question out of the water
    #3 - Ed Edwards blows OldRegular's simple question out of the water with scripture (only)
    #4 - non-Revmitchell disses Ed's Bible (how could a 1599 Bible Edition be a MV?)
    #5 - Allan blows OldRegular's simple question out of the water
    #6 - Ed appeals to non-Revmitchell's sense of service to God (i.e. tests the spirit)
    #7 - non-Revmitchell flunks spirit test
    #8 - OldRegular gripes
    #9 - OldRegular gripes with similies
    #10 - OldRegular gripes
    #11 - Allan blows OldRegular's simple question out of the water again - including scripture
    #12 - OldRegular gripes
    #13 - Sister Amy.G supports OldRegular's point
    #14 - OldRegular gripes
    #15 - Sister Amy.G points out she was supporting OldRegular's point
    #16 - OldRegular gripes more

    Ed notes it usually takes 36 hours for a BB thread to have a well reasoned definitive post in it; this Topic is only 24-hours old.

    It is just me or isn't this about the 5th Topic, OldRegular started where he doesn't read the posts nor argue their points but JUST GRIPES?
     
    #18 Ed Edwards, Nov 7, 2008
  19. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    Rather insulting don't cha think, Ed?

    The kingdom that the disciples envisioned was totally different than the one Jesus taught. Jesus said His kingdom was not of this world, yet you guys keep trying to make it "of this world". Jesus' kingdom is spiritual. He never spoke of an earthly, fleshly kingdom.



    John 18:36
    Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
     
    #19 Amy.G, Nov 7, 2008
  20. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=52816&page=22

    See post #218

    Amy.G: // It looks like the same kingdom to me. One kingdom, not 3. //

     
    #20 Ed Edwards, Nov 7, 2008
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