Messianic Movement

Bro. Bob, to fall from Grace is a break in fellowship. To be in Grace is to be free in Christ because he fulfilled the law. Thus, there is no way timothy could have lost his salvation. Falling from Grace is not falling away. Christ redeemed his people with a price. That price is precious and he will lose not one of them.

I know this is off topic, but if this were speaking of Timothy losing his salvation, my chances were ruined as a baby, and so both of my sons.

Bro. Dallas

 

If you engaged in that under the argument "you must be a Jew to be saved" (see the text of Acts 15:1 (unless you are cicumcised you "can not be saved) then indeed you would be falling from grace.

That was the "only argument" being made in those days for gentiles to observe that practice.

Jews on the other hand had "another" reason. They had cultural reasons and they had a calling from God that was symbolized by that practice. So they could easily participate without having to ALSO agree "And if we do not do this we can not be saved" as though BEING a Jew was the requirement for salvation.

As for once saved always saved - I am not a 5 point Calvinist so I have no way to go there. I think there was a thread here on that subject --

In Christ,

Bob

 

When I joined the Rite of Christian Initiation of A d u l t s team here at the University this Fall, I met the other hand-picked members. One of them studied the Bible in Israel for five years as a Messianic Jew before he reconciled with the Church, and his name is Andre. I'm sure he would be a good source to turn to for information regarding the Messianic movement.

 

Falling from Grace is not falling away.

If we're saved by grace, and if when we are in a state of grace, we're saved because only by grace we can be saved.. then to "fall from grace" means that you can no longer be saved - for only "in grace" can one be saved.

This split between fellowship and salvation is a tradition of men that nullifies the Word of God in order to uphold the human tradition of OSAS, and I know of numerous individuals who once held to OSAS who now reject it due to the clear language of the Bible.

 

Then what we gain by the unmerited favor(grace) of God is not eternal life through Christ, but a 'knowing' of eternal life through Christ, but earned by ourselves. So, the tradition of men that apart from the church you cannot receive this 'saving grace' is not a saving grace at all, but designed to keep the children of God in perpetual fear and bondage. Love made perfect has no fear in it, regardless of who waivers from their belief in OSAS, it remains eternal life through Christ Jesus alone.

This is speaking of believers, immersed members of the church.

This is speaking to ministers of the Gospel of Grace.

Bro. Dallas

 

Hi Abiyah,

He is not Messianic but has left it

Andre would say that he hasn't so much left the Messianic movement as he has embraced what it leads to and what fulfills it in the Catholic Church. I can say this b/c I've heard his testimony.

If, as a Messianic, he believed in a works-
salvation, it was not legitimate.

Catholicism does not teach a "works-salvation". To say so or to believe so would be a complete misrepresentation of Catholicism, which teaches that salvation is a free gift of God's unmerited favor.

 

Can you again elaborate on what purgatory is?
I think I may have misunderstood what this concept is if what Catholicism teaches is in accordance to your last post.
Bro. Dallas

 

Abiyah said --
I am going to answer this just to bring it up higher
on the page of my recent posts. I fell three feet +
onto cement yesterday, sustaining a light concus-
sion and light whiplash. I am on bedrest and in
quite a bit of pain, so I am keeping it lite.

I pray for your healing as I write this post.

God's blessings.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Purgatory is the place where all the saved go that are not "good enough" for heaven "yet". They are tormented there until they are purged of all sin and can go to heaven. The idea is that they pay for their own sins (venial sins not mortal sins) in purgatory because those sins have "consequences" that the blood of Christ can not deal with - only an indulgence (pardon) from the RCC can handle it - or your own patient suffering if you are the person in purgatory.

Purgatory is such an unpleasant place - that any catholic that does NOT EARN an indulgence for his departed loved one to GET THEM OUT ASAP is considered to be uncaring about his family.

The system of indulgences is based on the idea that Christ and many other saints "paid in more suffering than they owed" before they died. That excess suffering goes into the RCC's spiritual bank - that she draws on when you earn the various indulgences.

For example - if you go through the stations of the cross in Israel - you can "earn" a "Plenary" indulgence. (Unlimitted indulgence) guaranteed to get anyone out of purgatory no matter how much they owe - (providing that Christ honors the check once the church writes it).

Did Carson mention "no man made traditions"?? I thought I read him saying that some place.

IN Christ,

Bob

 

Hi Dallas,

You asked, "Can you again elaborate on what purgatory is?"

Purgatory is the application of the finished redemptive work of Christ by the Holy Spirit that involves suffering to expiate or to repay or to provide restitution for the effects of sin.

If you're really interested in learning the Biblical foundations for and a more complete theology of Purgatory, I wholly suggest this article:

http://www.catholiceducation.org/links/jump.cgi?ID=3206

Any good answer will be extensive, and this article is no exception; it's one of the best I know of on the Internet.

 

The Obvious flaws in what Carson has said can be illustrated in the system of indulgences and the "language" the church uses to outline their benefits. She can not "help herself" in describing the torments and awful punishments of purgatory as she tries to explain the "need" and the "benefit" of earning indulgences for loved ones stuck in purgatory.

A far cry from Carson's "other story " as listed above. Who would want to escape the "application of the finished redemptive work of Christ by the Holy Spirit"??

Answer: - Everyone on the planet who does not enjoy "suffering to expiate or to repay or to provide restitution for the effects of sin."

They have a saying about "putting lipstick on a pig". IN the first part of Carson's statement above - you see the lipstick.


In Christ,

Bob

 

Hi Abiyah,

You said that the RCC does not believe in a works salvation, so I do not understand your belief in purgatory. Is suffering for one's sins in order to earn "heaven" not a work? How do you define a works-salvation? How do you define salvation?

Those in Purgatory are saved. The suffering entailed in Purgatory (and most especially, now here on Earth!) in no way earns heaven. It is the application of Christ's redemption to our souls (i.e., sanctification).

As we are drawn out of this life and into direct union with Jesus, his fiery love and holiness burns away all the dross and impurities in our souls and makes us fit for life in the glorious, overwhelming light of God's presence and holiness.

This dross and impurity on our soul is the effects of sin, which has been forgiven (if it wasn't forgiven, then we would be in hell!). It's us washing our hands before we enter the eternal banquet of the lamb.

 

If you were toiling in the fields all day and at last were invited to the great banguet of your employer, would you consider it working and earning the invitation if you washed yourself first?
Would you seek entry in such an unworthy state as to offend your host?
Or would you consider it only proper that you presented yourself cleaned and as white as snow?

Or I guess a third option some might consider is perhaps cloaking your fithiness which would only mean you're still filthy and stinky but you've managed to disguise the reality of your filth.
Now consider at the entrance to the banquet hall reads a sign that NOBODY WITH ANY FILTH WHATSOEVER SHALL BE ALLOWED IN. Which option would you choose? And if you chose to be cleansed would you now consider it as earning or working to be allowed into the banquet?
If you were fortunate to climpse a view of the banguet hall before washing yourself would you not long for (or suffer the seperation of) the Employer and the grace of the banquet hall experience itself while being cleansed?

I pray this helps.