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Mexico was here first?

Discussion in 'Political Debate & Discussion' started by North Carolina Tentmaker, Sep 21, 2010.

  1. Dragoon68

    Dragoon68 Active Member

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    Who introduced the Catholic Church to Mexico?
     
  2. Melanie

    Melanie Active Member
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    Gaaah, this sort of thing gives me the pip....

    Yeah, yeah the country and of course every other piece of dirt on the planet has been colonised, lost and fought over since human beings could toddle.

    So shall I go back to old Prussia and whine about being ousted by the foreign barbarians or Scotland. Get over it.:1_grouphug:
     
  3. NiteShift

    NiteShift New Member

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    You could give it a try, may gain some traction. It would help if your wore some unique ethnic garments such as a kilt.

    **

    What is the Pip?
     
  4. padredurand

    padredurand Well-Known Member
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    Ummm.... Catholics? Just wondering if this was a trick question. :tongue3:
     
  5. Dragoon68

    Dragoon68 Active Member

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    Who defeated Spain but did not keep all of Spain's territories forever?

    Who defeated Mexico but did not take it all?
     
  6. Hardsheller

    Hardsheller Active Member
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    Couldn't we just give California to Mexico and call it even? :laugh:
     
  7. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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    Even though I was born there I find no problem with this logic.
     
  8. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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    Let me guess... The USA!

    Look Mexico was more than glad to give us Texas once we beat them in a war for it.
     
  9. Dragoon68

    Dragoon68 Active Member

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    Yep, that's right and the thing is we were, considering we'd just won the wars, rather generous to the losers about it. We did not keep all the Spanish territory we could have following that war and we actually paid Mexico for some territory we could have just taken following that war. We could have just stayed in Mexico City and made Mexico a colony forever but we did not. America doesn't get the credit it should for how it has handled these things in history. All we hear about these days is how bad America has been.
     
  10. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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    You're right we do. America is the most generous giving nation that has ever existed since the creation. Yet, we've helped more than not. Its a shame we don't get the credit.
     
  11. dwmoeller1

    dwmoeller1 New Member

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    Of course, that doesn't even touch on whether this was a just war or not. Oh my, it was so good of us to not annex the whole country (which we know would have been ungovernable) after having started this war because we believed we had a God-given right to the territory we did take.
     
  12. Dragoon68

    Dragoon68 Active Member

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    There's that "America was evil" line again!
     
  13. dwmoeller1

    dwmoeller1 New Member

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    No, America was just like any other country - mixed with both good and bad impulses. Some time the bad ones drove and at other times the good ones drove. There is no reason to see America as significantly better or significantly worse than other countries. Both conclusions are fallacious. Denying the evil we did is just as fallacious as denying the good we have done. Using the evil we have done to obscure the good is just as fallacious as using the good to obscure the evil.
     
  14. dwmoeller1

    dwmoeller1 New Member

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    But in the case of the Mex-American war, its particularly absurd to hold our lack of annexing the whole of Mexico as somehow a good thing. It ignore
    - the standard practice of the time
    - the very unrighteous contributing factors to the war (Manifest Destiny)
    - the scope of the perfectly legitimate causes of the war (conflict over the Texan border)

    The only good in taking some instead of all is that we weren't as bad as we could have been.
     
  15. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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    As it turned out it was our God given right. So far Manifest Destiny hasn't been disproved.
     
  16. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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    I've lived all over the world and I can assure you that I see America as significantly better than other countries. Though we have done ill at times it hasn't over shadowed our good. Our country should be put up on a pedistal by other nations to emulate.
     
  17. dwmoeller1

    dwmoeller1 New Member

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    If you believe that it was our God given right to take the land we did, then I can certainly see your point. Hard for the bad to be bad when it was really just a God-given right.

    Although I can't quite get how other countries should be emulating our example when we kill millions of unborn. That part isn't quite making sense to me. Not unless one is cherry picking the things that should and should not be emulated. Which would kinda prove my original point.
     
  18. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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    The point of whether it was our God given right to rule sea to sea hasn't been disproved and now is a null point if someone hold that it wasn't because we do.

    As far as killing Millions of unborn I'm in agreement that is bad. It just so happens other countries kill Millions of people born or not live is just plain irrrelevant to them. Europe is in the same situation as the US with the unborn however they as the US have a moral superiority when it comes to not killing thousands of people because they happen to be a different tribe than we or faith.
    At least the united states is struggling with abortion for many other countries its not even an issue. Making it an issue is a step in the right direction.
     
  19. dwmoeller1

    dwmoeller1 New Member

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    The fact of possession has no bearing on the right to possession one way or the other. Pointing out that we do hold it is a red herring when it comes to discussion whether we had the God given right to take it. It doesn't make the question a null point because it has no bearing on the question at all.

    As to it not being disproved, I agree. But again, that has no bearing on the question since the burden lies with the one who seeks to prove that we *did* have such a right. That I may claim a God given right to your home, and though I may, through force take possession of your home, this has no bearing at all on whether or not I had could legitimately claim the right in the first place. Not having access to God's mind, it would be impossible to disprove your claim conclusively, but again, that has no bearing upon the question of whether the claim was legit in the first place.

    The burden lies with those who claim such a right, not with those who deny its existence. So, the right, having no foundation upon Scripture, history or any sort of precedence, was never demonstrated to exist. Thus, one can safely assume that it didn't. The proof of the claim lies with the one who claims, not with the one who denies. Otherwise, any claim no matter how wild or baseless would have to considered valid until conclusively proven otherwise. Such standards of proof quickly lead to absurdity.

    But I find it highly problematic that one would even entertain the idea of justifying the evils we did with the idea that it was just us claiming our rights.

    So somehow less bad makes us good?

    Son, among all the rapists, murderers and thieves, I want you to find the one who either does the least. or at least feels some guilt about what they do. and follow their example. ?

    You see America as good - something to emulate. I see them as less bad (in some regards) than many other countries. The evils are real enough and integral enough to our society and way of life that we can't be defined as "good", merely "less evil". Even the good we do is almost always mixed with motives of self-interest and self-seeking (ie. foreign aid).

    So yeah, compare us to other countries and we generally come off looking pretty good (although not always). Compare us with the standard Scripture sets and we see that we are merely the best of a very bad bunch.
     
  20. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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    To those in control the fact that they possess control could be construed as evidence that it was God's will otherwise we cannot prove one way or another it was God's will and ultimately its irrelevant because We control the Area we said God wanted us to Control. You could say the same of my house. If you took it by force and said that you had the ability to take it in such a manner because God gave it to you then I how am I to disprove it? It cannot and the fact you are now in my house gives a sense of credence to your claim in the sense that if God allowed it maybe he wanted it that way. Either way I'm out of a house and your in it and all arguments are irrelevant since I'm incapable of taking it back. If however I have the ability to take it back then that discussion can be made especially if I feel that God gave me the right to take it back.

    I don't justify the evil that the US has done. I'm just saying that in comparison to other countries where genocide is practiced daily. That we are an example to them.


    Not good but better.

    not the same thing. Find the one that make recompense for their actions and follow the example of recompense. If every one is a rappist, murderer, and a theif, I want them to follow the example of the one who stops it and make recompense.

    Darn Tooting.
    I would add all
    Still a darn site better than any other country I've visited. Why not lift the world to our level and then we can start discussing better morals.
    The plain truth of the matter is that we Rock! The rest of the world is stuck in their middle ages view of the universe and when the US fall off the map as do all countries the world will morn its loss.
     
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