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Michael Anthony Peroutka Endorses Ron Paul

Discussion in 'Political Debate & Discussion' started by KenH, Sep 20, 2007.

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  1. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    1) I guess you forgot about what happened on December 7, 1941. I guess you forgot that Germany declared war on these United States. And to compare it to the Iraq conflict, I guess you forgot that Iraq has never attacked these United States. I guess you forgot that most of the hijackers on September 11, 2001, were from Saudi Arabia and that none were from Iraq or even Iran.

    2) As I have pointed out in this forum before, our troops won in Iraq years ago. After winning, if our troops stay in Iraq another 50 years and our federal government stays on the current course in Iraq, there still will not be stability in Iraq as a unified country.
     
  2. saturneptune

    saturneptune New Member

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    Since you have not had the opportunity to serve, here is your opportunity, in the post above, by your own words. Also, it would give you a chance to sharpen those expert leadership skills you say you have. In fact, if you put your nose to the grind stone, you can lead the charge into Iran.

    The truth is you are so confused you have lost track of the fact that Ken, I and Poncho disagree on many aspects of Iraq. That is not the issue here. The focus is your lack of understanding what leadership means. That is what we agree on.

    This is how it is easy to reach a conclusion about your posts and mindset in relation to leadership. I think back to some of the past situations I have been in, then think about your posts. Then I imagine you taking the lead in those given senerios, and think, not in this lifetime.
     
    #62 saturneptune, Sep 24, 2007
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  3. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    Nope, not at all. And I saw some footage of it last night again.

    Nope, not at all. but remember, in retrospect, Germany's economy was hanging by a thread and they likely would have been unable to do much at all. Germany never was able to mount any kind of real attack on our homeland, so our fighting was all done elsewhere (and rightly so).

    If you will go back and carefully read, you will note that the comparison was carefully nuanced. I did not make a straight comparison but compared so similarities.

    And when you pointed that out, it was pointed out that you were incorrect. You have defined "win" differently than the commander in chief, and his view is the one that counts.

    How do you know? The truth is that you don't know. You are guessing. You should say so. You may well be right, but not because you know. I am quite sure that people said the same thing about Germany and Japan after WWII, and they were wrong. You may be too. At least admit that you are offering your opinion which is based on nothing more than your present understanding.

    My personal view tends towards the fact that you are correct about 50 years out. The religious differences are deep-seated. But if the US forces stay long enough to get the government to agree on how to disagree, the 50 years out may be forestalled.

    In other words, if we leave today, there will be great instability immediately. If we help the government get stable, the instability may be forestalled for 20-30 years (or may not). There are a lot of complexities and issues that you are smoothing right over.
     
  4. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    We don't have a large enough military nor a large enough treasury today to keep 150,000 troops in Iraq for 50 years.

    My view on the future of Iraq is based on the history of the Middle East for the past several hundred years.

    Germany certainly was a threat, as well as Japan, to these United States. Only the Allied bombing campaign stopped it from happening by Germany - www.iht.com/articles/2003/10/24/edcooley_ed3_.php.

    If Hitler hadn't been such a nut, especially in the late 1930s, he could have built a military machine that would have been much, much, much harder to defeat.
     
  5. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    I am not following you here.

    Where did I say I have expert leadership skills? Is this another case of you attributing something to me that I did not say? If I said this, then please tell me where. If I did not say it, then I think an apology is in order. Don't you?

    I don't think we should go into Iran.

    I am not confused at all. I have yet to see any valid argument against my understanding of leadership. So far, you have managed to attack me personally, and demonstrate political disagreements, but you have yet to illustrate or demonstrate any deficiency in my understanding of leadership so far as I have seen.

    Fine. I am not bothered by that. Being as that we have never met and you know so little about me personally, and given the fact that this is an internet discussion forum, I am not concerned in the least. I have yet to see any indication of your leadership training or background, or Ken's. I have yet to see you offer an substantive discussion about leadership that I can recall. I am more than willing to talk about leadership and learn. Please educate me. As I have said, I have never said I am an expert leader. I am a student of leadership and a student of leaders.

    The truth is that if we met each other in real life, we would all probably get along just fine. Which is why I hate these kind of discussions.
     
    #65 Pastor Larry, Sep 24, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 24, 2007
  6. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    My background is having spent the past 18 years as a supervisor.
     
  7. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    It depends on a number of things, such as our status in Germany and Japan where we have kept a military presence for the last sixty years. We could not maintain them there as well as Iraq (and I am not saying we should be in Iraq for 50 years). But redeployment of troops presently overseas would change that.

    My understanding is that the US has tried to maintain forces in strategic places around the world for rapid deployment. For instance, if the bulk (or totality) of the forces in Germany were redeployed to Iraq, that could be a partial answer.

    Which is why I tend to agree about 50 years out. But I think there is the possibility of change. Again, looking at world history, in virtually every case where democracy has been given a chance, it has ultimately prevailed at least temporarily, but in almost every case, it took outside help.

    There is some disagreement about how effective this would have been if they could have even done it. Historians differ on this point, to my understanding. But Japan was so extended around the Pacific region, that it is not clear how much farther than could have gone. Germany likewise was focused on Europe largely. Both had very weak economies, especially Germany. I think they probably would have collapsed within a few years in any case. One of their main hopes in 44-45 was flooding England with counterfeit money that would have destroyed the English economy.

    He had a pretty impressive one. I don't think the "nut case" aspect of Hitler affected building the military so much as its deployment. Hitler tended toward micromanagement and (like Bush) rejected the advice of some of his men in the field (cf. D-Day at Normandy when he responded too late). The German military was very strong, but that was what zapped the economy I think to a large degree.

    But again, historians who know more than either of us differ on that. We will never know for sure.
     
  8. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    Supervising them doing what? There are different levels of leadership. I have been supervising people in various capacities for almost 20 years, which is why I have spent so much time studying leadership. It is a great interest of mine, and my decision to continue my education this year is largely due to the fact that I want to be a better leader and a better pastor.

    But all of that is not really the issue. I love talking and reading about leadership. It's what I am and what I do.
     
  9. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Mostly in crude oil accounting. Presently I am in credit card accounting.
     
  10. Ivon Denosovich

    Ivon Denosovich New Member

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    Pastor Larry, please go on the record and answer whether or not we are building a democracy in Iraq. Please begin your otherwise trite compilation of semantics with a "Yes" or a "No."

    Your attempt to communicate literally and forthrightly will be apprectiated.
     
  11. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    First, there has been no argument about semantics. Words mean things and you have misunderstood somethings by missing words. Now, admittedly, I am used to writing for a more academic audience that reads closely so that could be part of the problem. Nevertheless, if you look back, you will see that the words I used are specific in their intent and clear.

    Second, I didn't know there was any dispute about the fact that we were tryign to build a democracy in Iraq. Of course we are. Why do you ask? Did you not know that?

    I have always tired to communicate literally and forthrightly. I generally chooes my words fairly carefully and expect them to be read that way. Sometimes, I fail to be clear, though I don't think that has been the case here. I think you have simply not read closely.
     
  12. Ivon Denosovich

    Ivon Denosovich New Member

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    So despite the fact you believe that Moslims don't like freedom of speech and freedom of religion you think they will like democracy? :rolleyes:

    I take it we're gonna hold em at gun point indefinitely to make sure they never stop liking it...
     
  13. Ivon Denosovich

    Ivon Denosovich New Member

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    At what point do the Muslims actually have to like their govt before we achieve stability? Again, literal and forthright diction will be appreciated.
     
  14. Ivon Denosovich

    Ivon Denosovich New Member

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    Peradventure you get in touch with your honest side, Pastor Larry, I await your, "I don't know."
     
  15. saturneptune

    saturneptune New Member

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    [​IMG]
     
  16. Ivon Denosovich

    Ivon Denosovich New Member

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    So, if enough soldiers die something good may happen eventually somewhere. I'm guessing the soldiers' lives should be viewed as mere commodities since they had the nerve to volunteer.
     
  17. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    I am not sure they don't like freedom of speech and religion. I imagine that the "rank and file" do, but I don't know. But again, my point was that I am person of principle, not pragmatism. The fact that they dont' like something is not really relevant to my point.

    I have never been anything but literal and forthright here and don't intend to change now. My suspicion is that the "rank and file" are far different than the leaders, who are in turn far different than the terrorists. In Islam, there will probably always been some terrorists. But if the government can be persuaded to negotiate peace (as Israel and Egypt did), even though they have great political differences, and if they will band together to stop terrorism, then a stable government can be achieved, I believe. Will that happen? I don't know ...

    I am not sure what the implication here is, though I suspect you are calling me a liar. My "I don't know" in the above paragraph was written before I read this, and it has been said by me in many other threads as well. I have always said "I don't know" what the long term outcome in Iraq will be. That hasn't changed. I have never been anything other than honest. I have tried to take the "I don't know" route and stop short of proclaiming dogmatism on these political issues that we simply cannot know about with certaintly. IMO, we would all do well to do the same.

    I have never made that argument; I don't believe it; and I don't know what would cause you to bring it up here.

    If you guess that then you are far more brazen than I. I would never guess such a thing. I detest the very statement and the idea behind it.

    But let me ask you a question, and hopefully we can get past the personal stuff here that you are throwing out. Here's the question:

    Have you ever thought about what it was like to be General Eisenhower in the days leading up to Normandy invasion? He had already lost some 700 men in a training exercise, and now he was getting ready to send thousands to a certain death. He understood that much was at stake. I think about that often wondering how hard it was to say "Go," knowing that your choice would be responsible for thousands of sons, husbands, and fathers dying on the sands of the beaches and mainland of Europe..

    That would be a difficult night. But at that point you recognize that at one level, the lives of these soldiers are commodities that you are trading for the opportunity to gain a foothold on the mainland with the ultimate goal of freeing non-Americans from Nazism. I am not sure you have fully reckoned with the implications and similarities of that.
     
    #77 Pastor Larry, Sep 24, 2007
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  18. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    And with the ultimate ultimate goal of protecting these United States from Nazi Germany and its allies who had attacked these United States.

    Iraq has not attacked these United States. Therefore, your comparison falls flat.
     
  19. Ivon Denosovich

    Ivon Denosovich New Member

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    Which is the FUNDAMENTAL issue. Are the BASIC tenets of Islam compatible with the BASIC tenets of democracy? Until we know for sure that the answer is, "Yes," it seems unjustifiable to risk human life and keep our fingers crossed for a redeeming quality. If the BASIC tenets of Islam are not pro-freedom then by default ALL Muslims disagree with democracy and not just the rank and file. Partisan meet semantics. Semantics, Partisan.

    No. But I take it you have. :rolleyes:
     
    #79 Ivon Denosovich, Sep 24, 2007
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  20. Ivon Denosovich

    Ivon Denosovich New Member

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    So, your position is that you know we're trying to build a democracy while simultaneously not knowing if we're even capable of building a democracy. I stand corrected. This doesn't even rise to the level of semantics. Question, Pastor Larry: what is your definition of a democracy?
     
    #80 Ivon Denosovich, Sep 24, 2007
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