Miracles the Holy Spirit & Jesus Christ ,the error of cessation

Supernatural Healing and the Manifest Gifts of the Holy Spirit - Introduction


Acts 8:14-17

The apostles in Jerusalem heard that the people of Samaria had received the word of God, so they sent Peter and John to them. 15 When they arrived, they prayed for the believers that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For the Holy Spirit had not yet come down on any of them; they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

If you are a strong believer who has never experienced the tangible power of the Holy Spirit, fear not! It happened in the early church as well. In this event discussed in Acts 8 above it is clear that these from Samaria had faith. It had nothing to do with their unbelief, it had to do with their understanding and God's timing. Notice that in Acts 8:16 the scripture makes it clear they believed, even to the point of being baptized in water in the name of the Lord Jesus. But even so, these mentioned in Acts 8 had not yet experienced the tangible power of God's Holy Spirit.

It states in Acts 8:16 that the Holy Spirit had not come upon any of them. So brothers and sisters and all visiting, if you have not yet experienced this type of touch from Jesus, fear not. Jesus' timing is always perfect. I hope today is that perfect time Jesus has appointed for you. I hope what you read here will bless you and help you receive this Mighty and Wonderful promise from Jesus Christ.

The debates ....

Many of today's churches are debating whether or not the Holy Spirit still manifests in a tangible way like the first century Christians experienced. Before I say anything else let me say this, we must open our hearts our bibles and our intellect. Most of all we must pray.

Many that will read this already have preconceived, or preconditioned opinions. This is not a problem unless you become unwilling to read the following scriptures because of those positions. I am not trying to change anyone's mind by my opinion, but I am trying to reveal what I have found in scripture to be sound doctrine. This of course without saying is open to anyone's debate, but let us reason from the Word. My intention is only to bless and hopefully promote a better understanding of this Gift, called the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is also very much a person, for the scripture declares, "For Christ is that Spirit." This means emotions, will and intellect.

Since I can do nothing without the Lord Jesus, at least not perfectly, I pray the King of Kings would become your teacher fresh by the power of his Holy Spirit. In his mighty name, THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST, I ask him for this with all of my heart. I praise him for it and for his grace and shed blood that makes it possible to receive it.

In answer to the question of whether or not the Holy Spirit still manifests miracles, signs and wonders is hundred percent yes. Before we go any further lets talk about those churches that teach that the Holy Spirit no longer does or manifests tangible miracles. This doctrine is called cessation. In other words ceased, or stopped.

These teachers believe all miracles ceased after the first century church was established. Now this is the scripture below they used to develop this doctrine in 1st Corinthians 13:8-10. Lets look at this scripture now.

13:8-10 8 Love never ends; as for prophecies they
will pass away; as for tongues, they will
cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.
9 For our knowledge is imperfect and our prophecy
is imperfect; 10 but when perfect
comes, the imperfect will pass away.

Here we see prophecies, tongues and knowledge passes away, or ceases. The condition for it to cease by those that teach this doctrine based it on the portion of scripture that states: "When perfect comes." Of course this perfect is represented by Jesus Christ coming and dying on the cross 2,000 years ago. This is well and good and would be fine without debate if it was not for verse 10 also contained in this scripture. However verse 10 is the balance beam. In Verse 10 it says that when perfect comes, the imperfect shall pass away.

So the question one must ask is this:

Has the imperfect of the world, such as the nonbelievers passed away yet? Read verse 10 again and think about it, it is obvious that when perfect comes the imperfect pass away. Since this has not yet happened this very same scripture proves that the gifts of the Holy Spirit have not yet ceased. Those that teach that they have base their doctrine on "when perfect comes" the first time. Verse 10 in this same scripture makes it very clear it is the second coming of Jesus when these gifts are no longer required, or cease. This also makes logical sense as well. Jesus said: "I will not leave you desolate, I will send you the Holy Spirit to comfort, teach ect.

Some Bible teachers like replace the word perfect, with the word maturity. This is just another denial of the obvious but let's look at their point of view for a moment. To teachers and pastors reading who prefer to use the word maturity rather than the word perfect, then here is a question for you.

If we as a body are mature *the church* then why does it say in scripture our knowledge is imperfect and our prophecy is imperfect. *See verse 9 above* Is there any person, teacher, or pastor reading today that can claim they have perfect knowledge? Is there any here today that can say they have been so perfected by the Holy Spirit, that they can say they have the mind of Christ as Apostle Paul talked about. Friends keep in mind even "IF" these teachers were correct, not all in the church has yet reached that maturity. Most are still are operating in the very basics of the faith.

Since the scriptures states we are all baptized into one body, and by one spirit, and since we are all members of that body, then I can only logically conclude since all in the body are NOT yet mature, then the gifts are still are in operation just as they were in the first century.

Also the scripture states when maturity comes the imperfect shall pass away. The word "OUR" which is plural is used in these scriptures. So agian we are talking about the body of Christ with many persons.

Something else to consider, Jesus said flesh and blood cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven. That which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the spirit is spirit. With that in mind remember also what Paul taught conserning Rapture, he said; "for corruption [mortality] must put on incorruption [imortality]" speaking of our new body. So based on these considered together in their proper context I must conclude the word "perfect" is the proper usage in this scripture, not maturity. In either case the gifts have not ceased.

The body of Christ Jesus as a whole is far from maturity, so even based on these teachers point of view *replacing the word perfect with maturity* I can only conclude all the gifts of the Holy Spirit are still in operation and are needed more than ever in the church. Not to mention there are many other gifts of the Spirit that do not manifest in such obvious supernatural ways, such as teaching, encouragement, faith, giving and the like. Have these gifts ceased as well because the church is now mature as some teachers proclaim? Of course not. Not to mention knowledge has not yet ceased has it? Remember the word knowledge from 1 Cor 13:8-10. If perfect has come or maturity as some teach, then why do we still have knowledge ? Here is that scripture agian, notice knowledge passes away according to this scripture. When does this knowledge pass away? When perfect comes. I hope all see the logic of this point. Here is the scripture. 1st Corinthians 13:8-10

13:8-10 8 Love never ends; as for prophecies they
will pass away; as for tongues, they will
cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.
9 For our knowledge is imperfect and our prophecy
is imperfect; 10 but when perfect
comes, the imperfect will pass away.

Lets now look at the Book of Acts

Acts 2:38-39

38 And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to him.

Notice here the Gift of the Holy Spirit is for you and to your children and to all that are far off. Read verse 39 again. Notice it states; "and to all that are far off." Who are those that are far off? These that are far off are those persons the Lord calls from every generation, including this one. Notice this scripture says, "Everyone whom the Lord our God calls to him. Well, the first thing a person is called of the Lord is: salvation by confession of sins and repentance of sins. So WHOEVER is called of God through Jesus Christ accepts the gift of grace provided by Jesus paying our price on the Cross. If you accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior then YOU ARE CALLED of God. If you are called of God then the promise of verse 39 applies to you. SIMPLE isn't it?

Now for clarity, I am not talking about a limited gift of the Holy Spirit, I am talking about the same power and presence of the Holy Spirit as is recorded in the book of Acts during the 1st Century Church. This includes miracle healing to your body. God still heals based on his grace and free gift, [not good works] accept God's promise of healing in the Mighty Name of Jesus Christ.

So what about those people that have believed in Jesus but have never felt the tangible presence of the Spirit? One reasons among many I would like to discuss is the one we just talked about. Those who have been taught that miracles have ceased are not in a position to receive from Jesus this gift. If Jesus does not correct them first, then most would become fearful when God's power started touching them. Especially if God had to remove a bondage first before filling them with peace.

Before I cover some of the other reasons lets talk about some of the ways the Holy Spirit touches a person. It is almost impossible to perfectly describe how it feels when the Holy Spirit touches a person tangibly, but it is possible to give a basic foundation.

WHEN TOUCHED FOR HEALING:

Usually you will feel extreme heat all over your body. Then after a few minutes, most will feel a wonderful and supernatural peace from the Lord Jesus Christ. You will know when this happens, it feels so Wonderful. It's like heaven on Earth. You will know when this happens and you will have zero doubt. You will know it is the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ touching you. It is supernatural and Holy brothers and sisters. The Holy One Jesus Christ.

Sometimes you will feel a wind first. Really !!!! just, like a real wind or lightly swirling breeze, even in a completely closed room. Sometimes you will feel like a warm blanket of energy wrapped around your entire body. When this happens it is like supernatural clothing. It feels like a part of you, perfectly.

Sometimes you will smell a heavenly Jasmine, or other wonderful fragrances. You will know this smell is heavenly and Holy when it manifests in the fullness of the Holy Spirit. If you ever smell these wonderful fragrances you are having an extra special visit from the Lord Jesus. You will know without any doubt when you smell them.

DELIVERANCE

Deliverance from demons, or bondage's such as drugs, hearing voices, mental illness, fear, or other unpleasant things of this nature.

When demons, or bondage's, or generational sins are broken you will feel a trembling in your body. Fear not, that's not you trembling but the demon, or bondage the Holy Spirit is beginning to break. Sometimes this will go on for hours, so fear not but rejoice and trust Jesus. Sometimes you'll cry for days as well as the Lord releases your heart from pain and bitterness.

Lack of trust is one of the other reasons many don't feel the power of the Holy Spirit. They are afraid Jesus will not protect them from demons, or other evil powers. Even though Jesus did promise to protect them, and never leave them.

Most Christians are fearful of being deceived by false prophets or teachers, this is healthy. But if you do not have the Holy Spirit teaching you, then it might not be wise to trust even yourself if the Holy Spirit is not manifesting tangible power in your life. We without Jesus' help are our own worst enemies. This help is the tangible anointing and power of the Holy Spirit.

Here are some of the other reasons many Christians don't feel the power of the Holy Spirit. The biggest one is many do not understand the finished work of the Cross of Jesus. Remember, Jesus said on the Cross, "IT IS FINISHED" What did he mean? The Clue, the veil in the Jewish temple was torn from one end to the other. This was a giant veil, hundreds of feet. All righteousness by the Law of Moses is finished. Not abolished, in respect to those who reject Jesus, but finished and fulfilled by Jesus on behalf of those who accept him and his gift of Salvation. This is what Jesus meant when he said "It's Finished." Grace was established, and forgiveness of sins by a new covenant paid for by THE BLOOD and LOVE of JESUS CHRIST.

The Jewish temple represented the first covenant and the Law of God. The Cross and blood of Jesus paid for our sins according to the first covenant which none of us ever kept, or presently keeps perfectly. To us it is offered as a gift, based on grace.

Grace defined: Pardon, Gift, unearned, unmerited, favor with God.

Now my point is this, when a person accepts JESUS' GIFT of SALVATION, this person accepts it based on Jesus's finished work and shed blood for them at the Cross.

No one ever gets saved by their own good merits. This is true before, during and after accepting the free gift of Salvation through Jesus Christ.

What happens to many is they accept Jesus Christ, but sometimes some weakness, sin, or problem remains after accepting Jesus. Or it returns after a season of backsliding away from Jesus. This in turn makes this son, or daughter of God feel unworthy and guilty. This unworthy attitude usually produces fear, or doubt, but most of all it separates them from prayer to God. They are afraid to ask God for anything, let alone the Gift of the Holy Spirit. Or they don't pray with faith, believing God still loves them. FEAR NOT !!!!!!!! Jesus still loves you more than you can imagine. Do not believe the lie of the fallen ones, or even your own mind should it cause you to doubt God's love in Jesus Christ. Jesus will NEVER stop loving you. Jesus said, "It is Finished" He finished it for you. Do not doubt his love because of some weakness, or serious sin you keep commiting. Ask him to wash it and to forgive you again, HE WILL !! He will forgive regardless of how many times you may have failed, or sinned. If you got the strength to ask him again, surely Jesus Christ has the strength to listen and forgive you agian. Even if it's for the same thing for the 1,116 time. Jesus said; "He, or she that is forgiven much, loveth much". FEAR NOT, talk to him, he loves you. I mean you !!!!!!!

Brothers and sisters and all, listen to me PLEASE, even if your flesh, or your mind is not yet perfected, if you accepted Jesus Christ based on his finished work and received it as a Gift, then you are forgiven and your soul is white as snow because of the blood Jesus Shed for you. You Accept the Gift of the Holy Spirit exactly the same way, AS A GIFT bought and paid for by Jesus Christ. Ask, the Holy Spirit right now in the name of Jesus if this is true. Some of you are feeling the power of the Holy Spirit for the first time right now.

The Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ, God the Father is a person. He is as much your Lord and Savior as he is your best friend. Do not be overwhelmed with fear, or doubt because of your sins or weakness in the flesh. Jesus understands your pain, I don't care how many times you failed or sinned the same sin over and over.

Ask Jesus Christ to touch you right now with the Power of his Holy Spirit. Only Jesus Christ and his grace and power can set you free. He said come to me all you who are heavy laden and I shall give you rest. Well, a modern term for heavy laden is simply, burned out, or overwhelmed.

The rest Jesus is talking about is not natural rest, but supernatural rest. As Jesus said and His word declares, Peace I give to you not as the world gives. Jesus said, NOT AS THE WORLD GIVES. Satan is of the World that is why he uses drugs to alter a persons state of mind. That is the best Satan can do in the peace department. False peace with drugs and addictions. Satan cannot give supernatural peace in anyway, shape, or form. Satan always uses external devices of the natural. If Satan could counterfeit Jesus' peace, then Satan would never use drugs. Only Jesus can give Holy supernatural peace, so fear not.

Jesus gives the peace that surpasses knowledge, full of Glory and truth and most of all Love.

You need to also remember, Jesus sometimes makes you perfect through your weaknesses, then comes the victory. The victory comes the minute Jesus knows that you realize that your good works, or lack of good works had nothing to do with it. It is a victory based on his free gift and love for you. It is based on HIS GRACE and HIS MERCY, not your works.

ASK Jesus Christ to touch you tangibly right now with the Power of His Holy Spirit. Jesus Christ promised you that he would never give you a serpent, or an evil gift. So believe him !!! Ask the Father in the Mighty Name of Jesus Christ for the tangible in filling of his Holy Spirit.

Ask, Seek, Knock he is standing at the door of your heart again. Fear not, Jesus Loves you regardless of your weakness, ASK HIM !!! Remember he died so you could come without fear, he loves you and he understands.

Sometimes God allows weakness, or some problem so you will learn to trust only his Grace, never your own good works, or your ability to keep the law of Moses. We all fall short but Jesus Gives us more grace, that's God's love to you in Jesus Christ, ACCEPT IT !!!!! He accepts you Let Jesus work out your weaknesses.

QUIT TRYING to do it on your own. QUIT BEGGING GOD, he died for you and loves you. WHY WOULD A CHILD OF GOD have to BEG, only a slave begs.

Jesus died for all that would come to him, just as they are. No conditions, just come. This is true even for those Christians who have backsliden. Jesus says Just Come. This is true for all believers or nonbelievers. Jesus Christ says, just come and I will give you rest and peace.

This is true even for those who have argued, or cursed God during a painful trail, or the loss of a special loved one. Jesus says I know your hurting, I know your angry with me, I know it's seems that I did not answer your prayer. But I love you, just come. Someday I will explain it all and show you everything.

Pray like a child, not like a slave in fear. Thats what God's Grace in Jesus Christ is all about, so you can come as a child in spite of your weakness, or sins.

Do you smoke, or do you dress funny? Do you like to dye your hair green, or orange. Did you pierce your belly button, or your tongue?

Jesus says just come. Jesus looks at the heart, not your looks or your past, or even your present sins or weaknesses in the flesh. He wants to bury your past FOREVER and show you wonders and blessings in your FUTURE with him. And Jesus wants to show you them today by his Holy Spirit. Not when you leave the planet to go home. But NOW !!!! Even right now for some of you, Ask Him !!!!!

Holy Spirit touch them for I can do nothing by my own power without you. In the Mighty Name of Jesus Christ I ask.

Now I would like to close with the following scriptures:

>> Mark 9:38-39 << and >> Luke 11:11-19 <<

Also:>> Galatians 3:1-14 Galatians 5:1-6 Galatians 6:1-3 <<

John 14:18-27 John 15:12-17

Last but not least is love. Without Love you cannot do anything. Pride, unforgiveness, or being judgmental will also separate you from the tangible power of the Holy Spirit. It is extremely important to love the unbelievers of the world as Jesus loved us. I'll be brief about these things, since they are so obvious. Jesus commanded us to judge not, to forgive and yes to even forgive our enemies. We were all enemies of God at some point in our life, even if you were raised a Christian. If you ever once looked down in disgust at a nonbeliever, then at that moment you were Jesus' enemy. Why, because if that person you looked at was the only person alive, Jesus would have still come and died for him, or her.

THE POWER OF GOD'S GRACE

Scripture study list at bottom.

The scriptures list located at the bottom of this page are given in a particular in order. This order will help you understand THE IMPORTANCE and THE PURPOSES of God's Law to Moses and God's grace through JESUS CHRIST.

The Holy Spirit always operates through believers by Grace. This study list if read prayerfully will help all to better understand what many Christians misunderstand about God.

Remember: God's ultimate objective is grace to all. Don't give up if you don't understand at first, just remember GOD accepts and loves you JUST AS YOU ARE.

Holy Spirit quicken them to ask you to help them and then ANOINT THEM with YOUR GIFT of WISDOM and UNDERSTANDING for the SCRIPTURES. I ask in the name of Jesus Christ that this GIFT would be given to all who will begin reading these following scriptures. I also ask that you would touch them Holy Spirit in a tangible way that they can feel your touch so their faith could be increased. Your will be done Father God Almighty and I thank you for it all in the NAME of your only begotten son Jesus Christ. Thank you Father for your LOVE, your patience, your MERCY and your ABUNDANT GRACE that keeps us when we make mistakes. Holy Spirit you are their teacher teach them I pray, and most of all teach them how to WALK IN LOVE, to walk in YOUR PRESENCE by your Holy Spirit.

Remember brother and sisters all knowledge is given for the purpose of an increasing a believers understanding so he can minister God's Truth IN LOVE AND SIMPLICITY. Not all can understand the deep things of God, but all can understand LOVE. Even your pet understands love, no words necessary.

God can do more miracles through someone with very little knowledge with an abundance of unconditional love, than he can with someone with a lot of knowledge, but only a little love.

Even if you have only a little knowledge but have FAITH that the Holy Spirit will do the work promised, then you could say in the name of Jesus Christ rise and be healed and whoever it was spoken to would be healed.

The only thing that the Lord Jesus wants you to do is ask and then wait for the Holy Spirit to come upon you. Remember, it's in Jesus' time not ours. Jesus decides when and who and where. BUT BE SURE TO ASK !!!!

You must know the Spirit of Jesus Christ in a very personal way. When the anointing of the Holy Spirit comes upon you FOR HEALING you will know it. You will feel a warm sometimes hot presence on your body, especially in your hands and feet. Sometimes numbness in the hands occurs as well.

It's like drawing on unseen resources, Holy Holy resources.

Also you will experience an anointing upon your mouth, this is the HOLY SPIRIT HELPING you to speak the word he wishes to be spoken at that moment through you. All you have to do ask the HOLY SPIRIT in the NAME of JESUS and then WAIT. If God is ready his Holy Spirit will let you know. If a warm peaceful presence of the Holy Spirit comes then pray for that person. Don't pray for that person outloud until the Spirit comes upon you first, you can pray privately but remember the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ does the miracle, not you.

If you pray outloud for a person before the anointing comes, then in almost all cases nothing will happen. Also most importantly Jesus Christ must receive all the credit for any miracle. The minute you take any credit for it or become self important, *PRIDEFUL* the Holy Spirit will stop working through you. LOVE, FORGIVENESS, PATIENCE, GRACE is the key to God's Power in THE NAME OF JESUS. Knowledge can never replace sincere LOVE.

Children, young people, any age, if you feel the presence of the Holy Spirit, then ask God in the name of Jesus to touch or heal that person you're hoping for. If you do, you will see God's Spirit reward your LOVE with a miracle. REMEMBER: SALVATION IS A GIFT, it is not based on a person's good works, or the ability or lack of ability of a person to obey God. It's about asking for HIS GIFT, a gift which none of us deserve. We all fall short daily and God understands the hearts of us all, so let him alone be judge.


Study List follows below.

STUDY LIST / THE GRACE and LAW COVENANTS

1) ROMANS 8:35-39
2) ROMANS 9:31-33
3) ROMANS 7:6-25
4) ROMANS 8:14-17
5) TITUS 1:1-15
6) TITUS 3:5-9
7) ROMANS 10:1-16
8) ROMANS 11:2-12
9) ROMANS 11:6
10) ROMANS 11:29-36
11) ROMANS 14:1-14
12) ROMANS 14:21-23
13) 1ST CORINTHIANS 1:26-29
14) 1ST CORINTHIANS 2:2-13
15) 1ST CORINTHIANS 3:1-11
16) 1ST CORINTHIANS 4:1-5
17) 1ST CORINTHIANS 10:23-33
18) 1ST CORINTHIANS 15:55-57
19) 2ND CORINTHIANS 3:5-14
20) 2ND CORINTHIANS 3:17
21) 2ND CORINTHIANS 4:1-7
22) GALATIANS 2:16-21
23) GALATIANS 3:1-29
24) GALATIANS 4:1-31
25) GALATIANS 5:1-6
26) EPHESIANS 1:2-14
27) EPHESIANS 2:5-9
28) EPHESIANS 2:11-2
29) COLOSSIANS 2:8-17
30) 1ST TIMOTHY 1:1-17
31) HEBREWS 7:11-28
32) HEBREWS 8:1-13
33) 1ST TIMOTHY 2:3-6
34) ROMANS 10:9-17

 

ROFL, actully the only thing you can make a case for is the book of smells. And of course you were being disrespectful. I can smell false humility a mile a way.

I'm looking forward to your points now that we got the smells out of the way. Prove to me from scripture where it states manifest miracles have ceased from scripture. You have no case because cessation is based solely on what was discussed above and it is clearly error. But I'm waiting for your points. Go for it, show me

Km

 

No I have not, if you would like me to refer you to numerous sites on what cessation is, or partial cessation and it's history, where it started and so forth I would be glad show you. But first I'd like to hear you point of view. What is your cessation point of view and how to you defend your doctrines based on scripture.

 

Brian your reading your opinion into the text. The text is clear "only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus" They had been baptized in Jesus' name long before Peter and John even heard of them.

By the way this is not the original text, you should read it from the original greek, for your translator has a cessationist slant. Either way: "only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus" So even in this lousy translation it shows they had been baptized long before Peter and John arrived. You do not get baptized unless you believe.

 

Since most of your point is just your opinion I will just deal with the above. First of all Jesus said about those in heaven that they are neither male no female but like the angels and are not given in marriage. So neither is Christ male or female in the fullness of the Spirit. That takes care of the Andros argument. Now for teleios. This word mdepending on the translator means the following:

TELEIOS


TRANSLATIONS

Let us consider how four translations of the NT have translated TELEIOS (an adjective) and TELIOO (a verb).
1. The American Standard Version- perfect, man, full-age, full-grown.
2. The King James Version- perfect
3. The New King James Version- perfect, mature
4. The New American Standard Version- complete

Various translations on TELIOO- consecrate, finish, fulfill, make perfect.

DEFINTIONS

Now to see what four Greek lexicographers have to say.

1. Thayer- "... brought to its end, finished; wanting nothing; perfect.., of men, full-grown, adult, mature..." The verb: "1. to carry through completely; to bring to an end. 2. i.e. add what is yet wanting in order to render a thing full. 3. to bring to the proposed goal..."

2. Vincent- (I Cor. 2:6): "... them that are full-grown.... see Eph. 4:13 where a perfect man is contrasted with children... also I Cor. 14:20: where the word men 'is lit. perfect..."

3. Barclay- "TELEIOS has a physical sense; it describes an animal or a person who is full-grown and who has reached the height of physical development. It also has a mental sense. It describes a person who has progressed beyond the rudimentary instruction and is now a mature student. This is the sense which Paul uses in I Cor. 2:6..."

4. Vine- "... It is used 1. of persons, (a) primarily of physical development, but also (b) of goodness without reference to maturity...a spiritual maturity or completeness, Mt. 19:21. 2. of things, complete or perfect, Rom. 12:2 and I Cor, 13:10..."

*******

Now who's right here, it does not matter really because regardless of the correct usage of the word teleios above the church is not even at the weakest of the four definitions shown above. The gifts are firmly in operation according to scripture, what is lacking is faith for these gifts. Your are in error sir.

[ July 15, 2003, 07:10 PM: Message edited by: Jesusmyfriend ]