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Missions and flavors

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by tinytim, Mar 16, 2007.

  1. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    Yes, John of J is right.
    Many Primitive Baptists do not believe in missions.
    I say many because there are Primitive Baptists who have jumped in on modern missions.
    We do not believe in the missions you espouse because:

    a. You go out on the proposition that preaching the gospel gets people saved. There is no scriptural proof to that. Preaching the gospel brings life and immortality to light, already possessed by the elect child of God.

    The gospel is good news of a finished salvation designed and executed by a merciful God from eternity past for His people whom He knew before they even knew them.

    I have said this before, and say it again, the preacher and the gospel has no more power to save than an attorney and a will has the power to make a beneficiary rich.

    b. You go out on the proposition that unless there are missionaries out there, God is absolutely unable to reach out to His people and bring them to Christ, therefore making salvation a partnership between the triune God and you, making God totally dependent on fallen men who could barely control sin from entering their thoughts.

    We believe God is able to make of stones children unto Abraham, and show us then why this belief is to be ridiculed and held in contempt by you "missionaries" ? Is that unbiblical when no less than John the Baptist uttered those words ?

    c. Many of your missionaries go out on the proposition that God called them to the mission field, yet hesitate to immediately pack up and go without looking back unless they have first made the rounds of churches for pledges of support.

    We believe that if a man is called of God, then by all means, pack up, go, and rely on the God who called you.

    And lest anyone start pointing their finger at me, know that even before I joined the Primitive Baptists the same has been my own conviction, and I have started a church in one of the most depressed areas of my city without relying on the sending church. God supplied all the needs of the church from building materials to my support, and more. That is not to say no churches helped. Yes, there were churches who helped, including the sending church, but I laid out the need only if they asked, and God did the rest.

    d. Many of your missionaries claim that they were called of God to teach the nations, yet they feel it is first necessary to go to school and learn preaching skills and learn theology, and "soul winning" strategies. If God called you to teach and preach, then all you need is your Bible, and prayers.

    So, yeah, we do not believe in missions and evangelism.

    At least, not your kind of evangelism, since we do not preach the gospel on the premise that God uses the gospel to save His people, with the end in view of counting laurels on how many souls were "saved".

    He saved His people, period. He chose them in Christ before the foundation of the world. In Christ they were slain before the foundation of the world, in the same sense that Paul says he was crucified with Christ here in time.

    In Christ their lives are hid, and in Christ they live.

    So, yeah, go ahead and damn us all you want, and then turn around and say we are the ones doing the condemning.
     
  2. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    I just posted these Scriptures on the "How dare you..." thread and thought it very appropriate here. God DOES use people to bring others to Christ:

    Acts 5:42 - And every day, in the temple and from house to house, they did not cease teaching and preaching Jesus as the Christ.

    Acts 8:4-8 - Now those who were scattered went about preaching the word. Philip went down to the city of Samaria and proclaimed to them the Christ. And the crowds with one accord paid attention to what was being said by Philip when they heard him and saw the signs that he did. For unclean spirits came out of many who were possessed, crying with a loud voice, and many who were paralyzed or lame were healed. So there was much joy in that city.

    Acts 8:12 - But when they believed Philip as he preached good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

    Acts 8:25 - Now when they had testified and spoken the word of the Lord, they returned to Jerusalem, preaching the gospel to many villages of the Samaritans.

    Acts 8:29 - 31; 35-40 - And the Spirit said to Philip, "Go over and join this chariot." So Philip ran to him and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and asked, "Do you understand what you are reading?" And he said, "How can I, unless someone guides me?" And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him. Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning with this Scripture he told him the good news about Jesus. And as they were going along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, "See, here is water! What prevents me from being baptized?" And he commanded the chariot to stop, and they both went down into the water, Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized him. And when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord carried Philip away, and the eunuch saw him no more, and went on his way rejoicing. But Philip found himself at Azotus, and as he passed through he preached the gospel to all the towns until he came to Caesarea.

    Acts 10:42 - And he commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one appointed by God to be judge of the living and the dead.

    Acts 11:19-21 - Now those who were scattered because of the persecution that arose over Stephen traveled as far as Phoenicia and Cyprus and Antioch, speaking the word to no one except Jews. But there were some of them, men of Cyprus and Cyrene, who on coming to Antioch spoke to the Hellenists also, preaching the Lord Jesus. And the hand of the Lord was with them, and a great number who believed turned to the Lord.

    Acts 14:5-7 - When an attempt was made by both Gentiles and Jews, with their rulers, to mistreat them and to stone them,they learned of it and fled to Lystra and Derbe, cities of Lycaonia, and to the surrounding country,and there they continued to preach the gospel.

    Acts 14:21-23 - When they had preached the gospel to that city and had made many disciples, they returned to Lystra and to Iconium and to Antioch, strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying that through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God. And when they had appointed elders for them in every church, with prayer and fasting they committed them to the Lord in whom they had believed.

    Acts 16:6-15 - And they went through the region of Phrygia and Galatia, having been forbidden by the Holy Spirit to speak the word in Asia. And when they had come up to Mysia, they attempted to go into Bithynia, but the Spirit of Jesus did not allow them. So, passing by Mysia, they went down to Troas. And a vision appeared to Paul in the night: a man of Macedonia was standing there, urging him and saying, "Come over to Macedonia and help us." And when Paul had seen the vision, immediately we sought to go on into Macedonia, concluding that God had called us to preach the gospel to them.
    So, setting sail from Troas, we made a direct voyage to Samothrace, and the following day to Neapolis, and from there to Philippi, which is a leading city of the[d] district of Macedonia and a Roman colony. We remained in this city some days. And on the Sabbath day we went outside the gate to the riverside, where we supposed there was a place of prayer, and we sat down and spoke to the women who had come together. One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul. And after she was baptized, and her household as well, she urged us, saying, "If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come to my house and stay." And she prevailed upon us.

    Acts 17:16-34 - Now while Paul was waiting for them at Athens, his spirit was provoked within him as he saw that the city was full of idols. So he reasoned in the synagogue with the Jews and the devout persons, and in the marketplace every day with those who happened to be there. Some of the Epicurean and Stoic philosophers also conversed with him. And some said, "What does this babbler wish to say?" Others said, "He seems to be a preacher of foreign divinities"--because he was preaching Jesus and the resurrection. And they took hold of him and brought him to the Areopagus, saying, "May we know what this new teaching is that you are presenting? For you bring some strange things to our ears. We wish to know therefore what these things mean." 21Now all the Athenians and the foreigners who lived there would spend their time in nothing except telling or hearing something new.
    So Paul, standing in the midst of the Areopagus, said: "Men of Athens, I perceive that in every way you are very religious. For as I passed along and observed the objects of your worship, I found also an altar with this inscription, 'To the unknown god.' What therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you. The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by man, nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything. And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place, that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us, for "'In him we live and move and have our being';as even some of your own poets have said, "'For we are indeed his offspring.' Being then God's offspring, we ought not to think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and imagination of man. The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead."
    Now when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked. But others said, "We will hear you again about this." So Paul went out from their midst. But some men joined him and believed, among whom also were Dionysius the Areopagite and a woman named Damaris and others with them.
    __________________
     
  3. tinytim

    tinytim <img src =/tim2.jpg>

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    Pinoy, I soooo disagree with your beliefs about salvation and missions.
    There would not be any reason to even respond to your points.
    I disagree with all of them.
    You are taking a very minor doctrine and looking at all other doctrines through the lens of the minor one.
    You are so far past Calvinism. And it has affected everything else the Bible says to you.

    It is our job to win souls.
    It is our job to evangelize the world.
    God chose to use us.
    God chose missionaries to go into the world.
    God wants his men prepared to do their job... seminaries.
    God wants His church to support the missions.

    You have just demonstrated everything I don't believe.

    I'm not condemning you, but IMO you are wrong.
     
  4. amity

    amity New Member

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    Ann,all I see in your scriptures is preaching. I do not see missions, I do not see mission boards. I do not see gospel salvation.
     
  5. tinytim

    tinytim <img src =/tim2.jpg>

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    The problem is, you too have been indoctrinated into hypercalvinism, that you can't see it.
    Remove the calvinistic glasses, and it is there.
    but unless you are willing to deny your hypercalvinistic theology, you will never understand what we are saying.
     
  6. amity

    amity New Member

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    I think it is just the opposite. Remove the lenses that say that those passages endorse missionism and you will see that they do not.

    And we can place seminaries on the list of worldly intrusions into the scriptural model of the church, too.

    And if you are going to use a sloppy term like "hyper-Calvinist" you might as well define it.
     
    #26 amity, Mar 17, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 17, 2007
  7. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    What do missionaries do? They preach. They stay in the area that they are preaching in, get into the people's lives, partner with them, and continue to preach the Gospel. No, there are no mission boards but they also didn't have passports, visas, etc. to deal with. Also, where there were believers, they would support the missionaries as they came to town - so that the missionary wouldn't have to worry about food or lodging. You don't always get that now. I completely see Gospel salvation - people heard and believed. They didn't believe and that was it. Each one of those people believed because someone TOLD them about Christ. Even the eunuch said that he couldn't understand unless someone told him. Couldn't God have saved him anyway?? But instead He used Philip.
     
  8. amity

    amity New Member

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    Ann, Philip did NOT save the eunuch. it is a blessing to learn about Christ, yes, but I do not believe for a second that someone's eternal happiness or woe hangs on the actions of anyone alive today.
     
  9. tinytim

    tinytim <img src =/tim2.jpg>

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    Here is what Wiki says about Hyper calvinism:
    The prefix "hyper" may be used generically to refer to anything that goes beyond the accepted norm. There is therefore a sense in which one may refer to any Calvinistic views regarded as going beyond orthodox Calvinism as "hyper-Calvinism." This non-technical use, usually as a derogatory term, has been applied to a variety of doctrines which are often considered to be outside the pale of Calvinist orthodoxy:
    • God is the source of sin and of evil
    • a sign of election must be sought prior to repentance
    • men have no will of their own and secondary causes are of no effect
    • the number of the elect at any time may be known by men
    • it is wrong to proselytize
    • there is no common grace, that is, God cares only for his elect and has nothing but hatred for the non-elect
    • only Calvinists are Christians
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypercalvinist

    Do you not believe what this says..
    You say it is wrong to proselytize.

    YOu and Pinoy go beyond Calvinism, and into a realm of something else.
    Do you believe as Pinoy does that a person can still be saved, but never accept Christ as Savior?
     
  10. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    No - Philip did not save the eunich - no man can save anyone. But a man (or woman) can present the Gospel to the person so that they can KNOW Christ. They can KNOW what they're seeing/reading/feeling. God sends us out just for that reason.
     
  11. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Being supported by churches is entirely Biblical. Paul and Barnabas were sent out by a church, and supported by churches (See Phil. 4:15-19).

    The church is the church of Jesus Christ. It seems very strange that you would criticize and judge those of us who think the church of Jesus Christ is crucial in the work of Jesus Christ.

    You also think it is a lack of faith to receive support from churches. This shows you know nothing about the process of deputation. What, do you think I show up at a church and say, "Hey folks, give me your dough!"

    When I go to a church, (1) I never ask for money (the church decides that with no input from me); (2) I always ask for prayer, something the missionary who goes out completely independent from the churches does not get much of; (3) I preach the Word of God in the churches--something no one who loves the word of God and the church of Jesus Christ could object to.
    I resent the implication that just because I didn't pack up my family and head out with no preparation at all, your way, then I lack faith. You know what? I've seen missionaries who did it that way. They quit early.

    I have prayed for hours on my knees, asking the Lord for His will about support from churches, and He has heard those prayers and met every single need of ours in the 25 years we have been on Japan. We owe absolutely no money to anyone, our needs are met every single month through God's wonderful people in His chosen churches. That's the Biblical way.
     
  12. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    The usual Greek word for "preaching" is kerusso, proclaiming a message. What, don't you believe in sermons on Jesus Christ? Does your church preach on everything else but Jesus Christ? How is it possible for a sermon to be on Jesus Christ yet be devoid of anything about what He accomplished?

    Look again the the Scriptures Ann listed. How is it possible to say this is not proclaiming Christ: Acts 8:12 - "But when they believed Philip as he preached good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women."

    The entire book of Acts is against your position, Amity. You'd better cut it out of your Bible, throw it away, never refer to it, ignore it and hope it goes away. But it won't. The rest of us still have Acts in our Bibles.

    You need compassion in your life. You need to lift up your eyes to the fields, as Jesus said to (John 4:35). You need to look at the world with compassion as Jesus did (Matt. 15:32 and many other verses). You need to look out over your city and weep at their sins as Jesus did over Jerusalem (Matt. 23:37)

    How is it okay that people are lost and dying and on their way to Hell? How is it okay that only one per cent of Japan claims to be Christian (only half of that claiming to be evangelical)? Yet you think I am wrong to be here. You in your happy state of election would be just as happy if the whole 99.5% went straight to Hell. May God forgive you for your hard heart.
     
  13. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    So, according to you, before the preached Word, no one knew Christ, and therefore every creature born before then were damned and gone to hell, right ? Every one from the North to the South of the Equator, from the East to the West, and all points in between. God had no one of His own anywhere before the gospel, that He could then bring to Heaven, because there was no gospel, right ?

    And please, don't point me to Romans 1 as most gospel regenerationists do.

    I asked this before and ask it again: On what basis then did God bring Enoch and Elijah to heaven, these two not even passing through physical death ? And on what basis did God bring Moses to heaven ? On what basis did the Holy Spirit allow those named in Hebrews 11 to be recorded in His book ?

    I would like an answer consistent to the Scriptures that say God does not change, Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today, and forever.

    Remember, your position is that the gospel and its hearing thereof, saves.
     
  14. saturneptune

    saturneptune New Member

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    I would go beyond that. To me, evangelism and missions are basic tenants of the Baptist faith, and it is amazing that the word "Baptist" even enters into the title of a faith that does not.

    The Great Commission and faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God answers all the questions quite clearly.

    There have been several strawmen in the above posts. One, that mission boards are not the Holy Spirit, is quite true. However, most missionaries in many faiths that feel lead by the Holy Spirit are not supported by mission boards and are funded either through local churches or on their own. Secondly, it was said several times that the evangelism does the saving. That is ridiculous. God and God alone does the saving. It is He who chose how to spread the Gospel. Oh, and I doubt any of us will ever make the list in Hebrews 11.

    So what would Jesus have done for his three year ministry with his disciples if he did not believe in preaching the word in various places, sit and chat with Mary, Martha, and Lazarus?

    This has nothing to do with Calvinism or free will. This has to do with the fact that not spreading the Gospel in unBiblical.
     
    #34 saturneptune, Mar 18, 2007
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  15. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    It is nobody's job to save souls. That job was Christ's. And He did it, completely, unflinchingly, obediently, with no help from any human being.

    Evangelize the world depends on what you mean by evangelize. If you mean to preach the gospel so souls will "come to Christ and get saved", then I totally disagree. If you mean preach the gospel so those whom God loves may be taught the ways of Christ, gospel obedience, and gospel church membership, then yes, let us evangelize in that spirit and principle.

    God does not need anyone. He used no means when He saved His people, not the preacher, not the preaching, not the Bible. Christ through His death on the cross, here in time, finalized what God willed for His people, everywhere, anywhere, which is that they be reconciled to Him through His Son, only His Son, no one but His Son, nothing else but His Son's blood.

    Which missionaries ? Your church's missionaries ? The "Primitive Baptist" Missionaries ? The Roman Catholic missionaries ? The Arminian missionaries ? The Seventh Day missionaries ? The Mormon missionaries ? The Church of Christ missionaries ? The Jehovah's Witnesses missionaries ? The Presbyterian, or Episcopalian, or Wesleyan Church missionaries ?

    Which missionaries ?

    Where is the Scripture for seminaries ? I see what Paul wrote to Timothy whom he instructs to "study the Scriptures....." I don't see Paul telling Timothy, or Barnabas, or the Ephesians, or the Collossians to start Bible colleges, or Bible seminaries. I don't read Christ telling His people that He will send them to Bible school, or that He will send them people with Th.D.'s or Bible college presidents.

    The truth of the matter is that Bible colleges and universities are extra-Scriptural, like Sunday Schools, and what they do is churn out students and preachers who toe the theological line of their colleges and/or churches therefore adding more to the babel which is today's "Christianity".

    Again, which is His church among the many claiming to be His church ? They can't even agree on doctrines and practices, so which is THE church ?

    And you have just demonstrated everything I don't believe.
     
  16. saturneptune

    saturneptune New Member

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    To answer your question, if there were only two churches in town, one a primitive Baptist that did not believe in missions, and a conservative Presbyterian that did, guess which one I would go to. Not go to, but run to.
     
  17. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    Let me guess. The Primitive Baptists ?:laugh: :laugh: :wavey:

    Just kidding.

    I know. You'd go to the Presbyterian and would rather baptize infants as long as you can do your missions.
     
    #37 pinoybaptist, Mar 18, 2007
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  18. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    Nevertheless, I am amazed at the absolute hatred of "Christians" when the fact is pointed out that Christ, and Christ alone, His work, and His work alone, did what the Father wanted done, save the wicked in whose death He had no pleasure.

    Oh, sure, without a doubt there will be vehement objections that they agree to what was said, BUT.....

    the job is not done, yet, unless a church sends out a missionary to preach the good news that Christ has come to save sinners (and done it by the way). the work is to be completed by the missionaries, which God in His sovereignty appointed to be the continuers of the mission of Christ.
     
  19. saturneptune

    saturneptune New Member

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    The subject is not infant baptism. The fact is that no one said that Christ and Christ alone didnt do the work. That was your statement. No one said missionaries complete the work. They spread the Gospel as commanded by the Lord.

    What amazes me is the absolute blindness to what the Bible says, not only by Christians, but to those who call themselves Baptist. Your post is a bunch of baloney.
     
    #39 saturneptune, Mar 18, 2007
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  20. bapmom

    bapmom New Member

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    pinoy,

    you know full well that the Word of God existed from the very beginning. There has never been a time when the gospel did not exist. There have always been preachers, though they were not always called such. There have always been people proclaiming the truth of God's salvation plan.

    It also amazes me that you can just discount the Bible passages which clearly tell us that they have to believe it in order to be saved, and they cannot believe unless they have heard, and they have to hear through a preacher, and the preachers need to be sent. Pinoy, you are the one who (somewhere in this debate over the last few days) has told me that Romans 10:14 and 15 are taken out of context - implying that they mean something other than what they say......but you have yet to explain that comment.

    Please, if you can, tell us what they really mean.....
     
    #40 bapmom, Mar 18, 2007
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