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MMF - Music Seminars

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Aaron, Apr 14, 2001.

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  1. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Dr. Bob,

    I think I remember you saying that you lead music seminars. Is that right?

    What do you discuss at your music seminars?

    [ September 08, 2002, 09:51 PM: Message edited by: Aaron ]
     
    #1 Aaron, Apr 14, 2001
  2. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    (1) BIBLICAL BASIS FOR LOCAL CHURCH MUSIC - Scriptural principles, all related verses, purpose of music and how it fulfills needs in our lives

    (2) DEVELOPING A GOD-HONORING MUSIC PHILOSOPHY FOR YOUR FAMILY AND CHURCH - Tests of all music to listen to/employ in ministry

    (3) CONFLICTING STYLES OF CONTEMPORARY MUSIC AND TRADITIONAL WORSHIP - critique of various styles of music

    (4) BASIC PRIMER ON MUSICAL TERMS AND THEIR USE IN CHURCHES - to help song leaders, accompanists, soloists, choir members

    (5) PRACTICAL HELP FOR AN EFFECTIVE MUSIC MINISTRY IN THE CHURCH - setting up programs for implementing the "tests" so that our music will be God-honoring
     
    #2 Dr. Bob, Apr 14, 2001
  3. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Dr. Bob,

    Do you have more information posted somewhere. I would be especially interested in your "tests" of God-honoring music.
     
    #3 Aaron, Apr 14, 2001
  4. DocCas

    DocCas New Member

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aaron:
    Do you have more information posted somewhere. I would be especially interested in your "tests" of God-honoring music.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I am not Dr. Bob, but if you would like to see my philosophy of Christian Music see http://members.tripod.com/~ThomasCassidy/music.html

    [​IMG]
     
    #4 DocCas, Apr 14, 2001
  5. Barnabas H.

    Barnabas H. <b>Oldtimer</b>

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    Thanks for the URL Dr. Cassidy on your philosophy on music. Enjoyed it tremenduosly! [​IMG]
     
    #5 Barnabas H., Apr 14, 2001
  6. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Thomas Cassidy:

    Fantastic guidelines! I'm going to put a link on my web page to yours.

    I occassionally get requests for printed copies of mine. Could I have permission to include your pages in the printed copies too?
     
    #6 Aaron, Apr 15, 2001
  7. Bob Alkire

    Bob Alkire New Member

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    Dr. Thomas Cassidy, I also must say thanks on your "A Biblical Philosophy of Christian Music". It is great.
     
    #7 Bob Alkire, Apr 15, 2001
  8. DocCas

    DocCas New Member

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aaron:
    I occassionally get requests for printed copies of mine. Could I have permission to include your pages in the printed copies too?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>By all means. Be my guest. [​IMG]
     
    #8 DocCas, Apr 15, 2001
  9. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    Simple summary of the "Tests" for judging music in the local church ministry:

    Test #1 - Music must have God-honoring "Christian" lyrics

    Test #2 - Music must have God-honoring "Christian" musical composition

    Test #3 - Music must have God-honoring "Christian" musical performers

    Test #4 - Music must have God-honoring "Christian" methodology (in performance)

    So it is pretty basic. There are some absolutes in any field of "art" and music is one of those with good/bad often mixed:

    There are good and bad words
    These are good and bad melody, rhythm, or harmony
    There are good and bad charactered performers
    There are good and bad practices when performing

    4 hours on this brief outline. Got is coming up this weekend at Liberty Baptist, Casper.
     
    #9 Dr. Bob, Apr 15, 2001
  10. Ransom

    Ransom Active Member

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dr. Bob Griffin:
    Test #2 - Music must have God-honoring "Christian" musical composition<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Just out of curiosity: By what criteria do you determine whether the composition is God-honouring or not?
     
    #10 Ransom, Apr 16, 2001
  11. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    SOME SAY . . .
    IF music includes all varieties – jazz, rock, punk, rap, disco, heavy metal, pop, country, rhythm and blues, show tunes, classical, easy listening, even elevator “muzak”, and

    IF the only BAD music is music that promotes bad “lyrics” (sin), performed by bad “people” (unsaved, secular, rock), and performed in bad “places” (bars, dances, rock concerts)

    THEN the GOOD music can be exactly all the same varieties of music but with good lyrics (mentioning God, love, heaven), performed by good people (Christians) at good places (church, youth rallies). It is all personal taste. We cannot draw a line between good and bad music.

    “Some have labeled music moral or immoral but . . . morality dwells in human beings not in black ink on white paper; however, music does have moral value. It serves as an emotional trigger that can be used for good or evil.” – Lenny Seidel 1988

    “Words are incidental at best, or monotonous or moronic as usual. But the point is, they don’t matter. What you dance to is the beat, the bass and the drum. Rhythm takes precedence over melody and harmony.” - Steven Halpern

    I CONTEND THAT . . .
    Music is not neutral. It has the capability of communicating imbalance and sensuality and can confuse any spiritual message (lyrics).

    Any music that cannot communicate the message is unfit to use in worship of the Lord. My personal taste is subject to scriptural conviction. We must draw a line between good and bad musical composition!

    REASON #1 - The “changed life”. If music were neutral, a new song would not be needed. Good music conforms to God’s principles and the mathematical phenomenon that God created with sound. It must REFLECT God.

    God is the CREATOR – beauty, order, climax, contrast, color, texture, purpose, form, and harmony. Satan is out to disrupt, destroy, and create chaos, disharmony in all areas of life and art.

    What is our society doing today? Creating great masterpieces of art as we have through the centuries or exalting the immoral and substandard and “calling it” great art?

    “The quality of society’s art depends less on its artists than upon what it demands form its artists.” Joseph Addison, 1738

    REASON #2 – Notes are notes are notes . . . but notes are NOT music! They indicate variety of pitch, tone, compression and decompression of air.

    Music, like any art form, uses "neutral" notes to form good/bad music. An artist may paint a beautiful Mona Lisa, or a nude – what they do with the building block determines “good” or “bad”

    And that is what Satan is doing – upsetting the PLANNED RESULT of getting out the message of salvation through the medium of music. He is destroying the “rules” so that the abstract and bizarre are normative.

    We see that in ALL THE ARTS, but fail to see it in “MUSIC”
     
    #11 Dr. Bob, Apr 16, 2001
  12. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ransom:
    Just out of curiosity: By what criteria do you determine whether the composition is God-honouring or not?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    To understand how certain biblical admonitions apply to music a proper understanding of its nature is necessary. Music is more than the "pleasing" arrangement of sound. Like speech it is communication. Speech is primarily concerned with the communication of ideas. Music communicates mood; it communicates feelings, and it can do so despite our best cognitive efforts to resist it.


    Music is also related to thought. It is "muse"-ick. The deities believed to inspire wisdom and learning were called muses. To muse is to think deeply and seriously about something, and who can deny the influence different musical expressions have on our thoughts? The idea of musing is akin to the behavior of a sheep chewing its cud. The sheep chews, swallows, brings it back up, chews again, swallows again, and so on until the process is complete. In this way the sheep extracts the full nutritional value of its diet. In meditation, we mull over a thought, gain an insight, bring up the idea again, mull it over, find a fresh application, and so on until we've actually learned from it. It is the same with music. Throughout a composition the melodic structures of motive, phrase and theme, themselves named with words used to describe a person's train of thought, are combined and repeated until the intended aesthetic response is elicited, and this is the ultimate meaning of music, its effect on the listener.

    This is where the force of the Biblical admonitions is applied. The Bible has much to say about what should be the character of our general conversation as Christians. Therefore it has much to say about the character of our music.

    Music is not neutral. &lt;--Click Here
     
    #12 Aaron, Apr 17, 2001
  13. Dr. Forrest Lowry

    Dr. Forrest Lowry New Member

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    Having grown up in the 50's and 60's my taste in music is far different than my children. But as they have grown up loving the Lord, I have observed how much their music meant to them in their spiritual growth and development. I remember when my oldest son was listening to Petra - and at that time Petra was considered "cutting edge" and for me it was somewhat radical. I criticised their music and discouraged my son from listening to such questionable music. It was not till several years later that I found his Bible with dozens of song titles listed in the opening pages with references to scripture for every song title. I grieved over my critical spirit and my closed mind. Then I remembered how radical I was as a young person - and how critical people had been of "our music." Every generation has it's music - and there have been critics ready to "protect them" from such ungodly rythym or lyrics or sounds. Thank the Lord that some have always persevered and broken the mold and provided opportunities for every generation to express worship and praise to the living Lord. David's style of worship would probably not be popular today - any more than the early church's would. It is hard to believe that neither of them ever sang "Amazing Grace" and could actually be saved. As a 51 year old, I am grateful that God did not specifically speak to some issues regarding style, because He knew that every generation would need to walk in freedom - not legalism - not license - but genuine liberty. And as I allow myself to get to know believers from this younger generation - I find they are radically committed to Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. They have a passion to share Christ with their generation in relevent ways without violating any Biblical principles. Some of their musical tastes are outside my comfort zone - but then - some of my musical tastes were outside my parent's tastes too. I am convinced there are a lot of things outside the realm of my experience and outside the parameters of my own limited knowledge that can be used to bring honor and glory to God. So young people - "whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God...For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many, so that they may be saved."
     
    #13 Dr. Forrest Lowry, Apr 17, 2001
  14. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Forest,

    We hold to the Scriptures, not the warm and fuzzy sentimentality of subjective personal experience.

    For every person who thinks that rock music helped his spirituality I can post a testimonial of one who says it destroyed his spirituality. So the real question is, what does the Bible say?

    [ April 17, 2001: Message edited by: Aaron ]
     
    #14 Aaron, Apr 17, 2001
  15. Pennsylvania Jim

    Pennsylvania Jim New Member

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    Anyone here have the Christian satellite service "Sky Angel"? The reason I ask is...

    Within the last few months they added a new channel (9705 I think) with so-called "Christian" videos. Take a look, the stuff is downright Satanic. When I called to complain I was told about how dedicated the "young people" are who produce this stuff, and what dedicated Christians the folks are who are making the bucks off of it. Then I saw the folks who put it on interviewed about it and, indeed, they sounded like fine Christians. Maybe they are, none of us are perfect. My point in all of this is that just because a certain style of "music" is promoted by "fine people" or "dedicated Christians" does not serve to justify it.
     
    #15 Pennsylvania Jim, Apr 17, 2001
  16. Ransom

    Ransom Active Member

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aaron:
    So the real question is, what does the Bible say?
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    On the question of what style of music is God-honouring? Nothing. Therefore it is a question of liberty.
     
    #16 Ransom, Apr 18, 2001
  17. Ransom

    Ransom Active Member

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pennsylvania Jim:
    My point in all of this is that just because a certain style of "music" is promoted by "fine people" or "dedicated Christians" does not serve to justify it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Perhaps so . . . but the converse is also true. Just because a certain style of music is disliked by "fine people" or "dedicated Christians" does not serve to condemn it.
     
    #17 Ransom, Apr 18, 2001
  18. DocCas

    DocCas New Member

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    Christian liberty has nothing to do with being free to do as we please, but with being set free from the law of sin and death so we are free to do as ought to do rather than what we want to do.

    [ April 18, 2001: Message edited by: Thomas Cassidy ]
     
    #18 DocCas, Apr 18, 2001
  19. Ransom

    Ransom Active Member

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Thomas Cassidy:
    Christian liberty has nothing to do with being free to do as we please, but with being set free from the law of sin and death so we are free to do as ought to do rather than what we want to do.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    That is certainly not the picture you get from Romans 14, is it? Paul is talking about such things as eating meat, drinking wine and observing holidays and says that instead of being bound to one or the other option, we ought to be convinced in our own mind.

    I submit to you that enjoying certain types of music, or not, is exactly the same kind of activity as enjoying meat, or not.

    [ April 19, 2001: Message edited by: Ransom ]
     
    #19 Ransom, Apr 19, 2001
  20. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ransom:
    I submit to you that enjoying certain types of music, or not, is exactly the same kind of activity as enjoying meat, or not.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    If that's how you view listening to music, then you must defer to those who have a conscience toward it. That is the message in Romans 14 and 1 Corinthians 8.
     
    #20 Aaron, Apr 19, 2001
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