MMF - The neutrality of Music - Instruments yes lyrics no

Karen. I answered that earlier. A bad emotion is any emotion that springs from our natural man.

Reply to Bob Kauflin's "Music is Morally Neutral" by Aaron

Actually, music is not a medium. Music is a message. The medium in music is the air which carries the vibrations to our bodies. We then, quite unconsiously, interpret the vibrations and respond with the corresponding emotions.

Compared to printed media, the air is the paper and the vibrations make up the words or images.

Besides, we've already debunked the "music is neutral" fallacy, which is the premise of your post.

[ April 21, 2002, 06:36 PM: Message edited by: Aaron ]

 

Because, while the past attitude may have been noble, it often crossed the line into too many restrictions to be "safe". This is precisely the trap the Pharisees and certain gentile ascetics who creeped into the church had fallen into, and Paul and the other NT writers condemn their errors just as much, and sometimes more than outright licentism (e.g. "doctrines of devils", etc.). Then, the confused kids rebel against the hypocrisy of the old order, and being left with no real biblical framework, then conclude whatever feels right must be the safe way to test things. So some human, unbiblical program of moral superiority is not what we are to look up to, but only leads to self-justification ("our sins weren't as bad as theirs"). There was an equal amount of sin in every paradigm after the Fall.

 

OK, but you still have to prove that the "vibrations" of all music with 2,4 accented percussion and however amount of syncopation (and other "African" elements) always subconsciously make us respond with "emotions of the natural man".

 

I don't know why I almost let this one go:

Both Masters' (as well as author Calvin Johansson's) arguments I have noted, would seem to render the organ unacceptable, but because they like it (think it's so "spiritual"), it is good.

 

Aaron, ok this is one area you and I will most definitely butt heads on because music is without a doubt a medium. Music is a tool, not the message itself, where you came up with the vibrations concept is beyond me but we will disagree on this particular subject. On a different note, would you kindly show me scripture to back up the idea that emotions are wrong? Defining emotions of course being grief, joy,anger,hurt...along those lines. I apologize if you have already given scripture on this, fact is I don't really have time to go back and search for visual evidence in previous posts so I would be thankful if you could oblidge me with this..

Molly, I would agree that some christian songs are deeper than others or "more spiritual" than others in message, but I do not agree that anyone of them would belong less in church than another for the simple fact that each one of them has a message that will and can help someone sitting in the pew christian or non...therefore I say put it to use. As to the fashion in which it's presented, I have no problems in the way it's presented and yes I do go along with the whole "it's ok" idea...if it gets the job done and the bible doesn't speak out against it..I say go for it.

karen

 

Aye, there's the rub!

That's not my argument. That is St. Paul's. Romans 7:18, "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing." I don't think the Holy Spirit shares your estimation of his statement.

This is almost too good!

Upon what historical account did Christ base his doctrine of marriage in Matt. 19:4-6? He based it upon the account in Genesis 2:21-25. Now is the account here of something that happened before or after the Fall?

Hint: It was before.

Divorce came after the Fall.

[ April 21, 2002, 11:12 PM: Message edited by: Aaron ]

 

Karen,

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I'm pretty much confused on this....I agree with Aaron on a lot of things...but,then I see we are all at different places spiritually,some more mature,others just trying to figure it all out,some just trying to get through the day...so,maybe it is more of a preference thing. I desire for more depth filled songs with a reverent style that helps me understand more deeply about God and what His charcter is like(this is just where I am personally)...but then there are others that just need a simple more shallow song to encourage them for the moment. I do know that we are to grow as christians and not be content with milk,but long for the meat of the Word,which can be taught in music and songs,too. We should always be growing...never regressing back to desire less...there's that passage in Hebrews,I think ch 5,where Paul is concerned with those whose ears have become deaf to the meat and desire milk again. Can't this relate to songs and things we fill our minds with? I can not get thrilled over"I could sing of your love forever",when I long for what God has done,why I love Him,how He showed His love to me,how He suffered,and how I live as a result of what I learn. Songs should teach us,and if they don't are they good for believers? Shouldn't we all grow to be more holy,even in our music style. Everyone should be able to admit that a band with drums,electric guitar,happy clappy light songs, and everything else is more wordly,not more holy...if you deny this,I feel it is simply a justification for what you just like better. It is trend in the times and will fade....I pray!

 

Aaron, you really didn't answer the question, I don't have enough time to be able to read thru the entire page you gave all I really wanted was one or two scriptures saying that emtoions are bad and why they are bad....the verse saying the wrath of man....I've always thought wrath was actually evil not an emtion.

Your going to have to do better than that to help me understand your point of view, because where I stand the bible does not condem emotions but in fact God created us to express emotions and that is what makes us human beings.

Of course we can let our anger or any other emotion get out of control and rule our lives which is wrong, but the emotion itself just doesn't make sense.

karen

 

Karen,

If you want one verse, you already read it. James 1:20. (Wrath is an emotion. It is the same as anger.)

Now Paul says that in his flesh (his human nature; his carnal mind) dwells no good thing. That includes his mind, will and emotions. Romans 7:18.

We know that the carnal mind is at enmity with God, Romans 8:7.

Nothing that springs from the natural man is good. Jesus said that a corrupt tree cannot bring forth good fruit, Matt. 7:18.

How many more ways can it be stated? Nothing, nothing, NOTHING that springs from the natural man is good. It is only bad.

[ April 22, 2002, 03:33 PM: Message edited by: Aaron ]

 

Again, the orginal creation has fallen and is under a curse. Christians must mortify the flesh (the human nature), not nurture and cherish it. It is a cursed thing.

Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Colossians 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry

[ April 22, 2002, 05:42 PM: Message edited by: Aaron ]

 

Hey folks; why isit that most of the hymns we hold near and dear were "bar tunes" of the 1700's ? Seems to me that you are squabbling over little or nothing ! Music is neitral it's the lyrics that make it objectionable !!! It's the receiver's mindset and heart that translate the music into sinful emotions etc...

This same argument was taken up around 1750 for the same reasons. The classic hymns we enjoy are from the taverns of yesteryear. Ask John Wesley when you see him in heaven "What were you thinking man ? Don't you know that those songs are heathen ?" I wonder what his answer will be ?

 

I feel that music, both lyrics & music affect the listener. As an example ( call me narrow minded if you like) so called christian rock music. After seeing both secular & "christian" groups perform, I see little to separate them, also if you look at their clothing once again no difference. This makes me think that perhaps their hearts are no different. I have been in churches where they felt the need to "jazz" up the hymns and other music, it almost seemed like they felt the inspired writers of the music didn't do a good enough job for to suit them. I think that there is a very fine line between worship & blaspheme and alot of churches and "artists" are crossing it. God deserves our best, not something reved-up and made to look pretty by the veil of satan. Music is definetly not neutral, whether sung or played.

 

I agree,Stumbler.

I'm in one of those kinds of churches right now. It really is disheartening,to say the least. It is like God is our buddy,good ole boy,best friend, and the holiness and fear of God is gone.

 

His answer would be, "That's a lie of Satan."

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Aaron, I disagree with you on this. The bible says Jesus Wept which means he felt emotions, he was also angry too, so that means Jesus had carnel emotional feelings? I really believe you are wrong about this subject.

Emotions in relation to music, this cannot even come close to proving that any certain type of music is ungodly.

karen