Monergism vs. Synergism: What is Really at Stake?

As a non calvinist, I would still consider myself a monergist...I did nothing but accept and receive the gift God offered me. This in no way implies I was "jointly" responsible for salvation.

 

Amen. How does one "do anything" when something is FREELY offered to them? Acceptance is not doing anything.

 

Hmm....do you also reject the Trinity and the full diety/full humanity of Christ?

 

When a Calvinists reads that - they think that God can not POSSIBLY glorify Himself IF HE sovereignly CHOOSES that free will system. They argue that HE CAN NOT do it and so they reject the clear teaching of scripture on the fact of free will - thus making God the AUTHOR of sin and failure.


Every other false religion seeks in the same way to blame God for the failings of mankind. They claim God made man imperfect, flawed, defective or throug a system of carnage, disease, slaughter and extinction. All imperfect methods designed to create a doomed or flawed race -- destined to fail.

In Christ,

Bob

 

You said tautologies mean nothing. I assumed by tautology you meant something that had "logical tension" instead of "true by nature of it's logical form alone." Perhaps I was wrong.

The doctrine of the Trinity has logical tension. So does the doctrine of the full humanity and full diety of Jesus. If you think all statements with logical tension mean nothing, then I thought you might reject the doctrine of the Trinity as meaningless, too.

BTW, what did you mean by "tautology"?

 

Yes, we all believe in the Trinity, the Deity of Christ, the virgin birth, the substitutionary death of Christ on the Cross and other orthodox beliefs.

We merely do not buy in on the teachings of fatalism. The Bible does not teach this nor do we accept error.

 

I understand that. My point was simply that those doctrines contain logical tension, and since HS seemed to dismiss logical tension out of hand as "meaningless", then it would be just a tad inconsistent to believe in the Trinity or Christ's full humanity/full diety while at the same time dismissing something that contains logical tension as "meaningless" simply because it contains logical tension. It's an argument that would come back to bite him, if he applied it consistently.

 

When a Calvinists reads that - they think that God can not POSSIBLY glorify Himself IF HE sovereignly CHOOSES that free will system. They argue that HE CAN NOT do it and so they reject the clear teaching of scripture on the fact of free will - thus making God the AUTHOR of sin and failure.


Every other false religion seeks in the same way to blame God for the failings of mankind. They claim God made man imperfect, flawed, defective or throug a system of carnage, disease, slaughter and extinction. All imperfect methods designed to create a doomed or flawed race -- destined to fail.

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]I have read this three times. VERY solid, Bob. Clear, concise, true, and to the point. That old Lucifer, huh..."I WILL ascend...I Willlllllllllllllll. Heh. It's a good book!

 

Thanks Jarhed. (Though I would like to change a few spelling errors in that post!)

Keep up the good work brother!

In Christ,

Bob

 

I strongly object when anyone says, 'when a calvinist reads that they think', when they have no clue what we calvinists actually believe!! We constantly stress tne need to accurately exegete scripture, depend on God's sovereignty, glorify our God in salvation and ALL other realms of the world's government and history! How can one fault that with a single objection unless they continue to want man to be his own God! The God of calvinism is a holy, just, awesome and fully sovereign God and man is a mud ball and must be humble and dependent on Him for everything!

ON a light note Jarhed, as for your tautologies I remember this one from long back:
One dark morning in the middle of the night,
Two dead men got up to fight.
Back to back they faced each other,
Drew their swords and shot one another!

Pretty good example of tautologies!
Now, bow before Him, honor, adore and obey Him, our most holy, sovereign God! Repent and worship Him only and cease trying to deify man!
Blessings,

 

Funny that this charge of "no clue what we actually believe" keeps coming from the Calvinists when they are the ones who keep spitting out the accusation of the other side "deifying man"!

 

In creating a free will universe Lucifer was ENABLED to rebel just like Gabriel was ENABLED to rebel against their creator. But then each had to CHOOSE. And choose they did! And Choose Adam and Eve did as well. And God sovereignly DRAWS ALL MANKIND so that ALL may freely CHOOSE life for He stands at the door and knocks so that if ANYONE hears AND OPENS HE will COME IN and fellowship - UNION with Christ - takes place

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When a Calvinists reads that - they think that God can not POSSIBLY glorify Himself IF HE sovereignly CHOOSES that free will system. They argue that HE CAN NOT do it and so they reject the clear teaching of scripture on the fact of free will - thus making God the AUTHOR of sin and failure.


Now - the Calvinists want to claim that even though they obviously are objecting to the point raised about providing "free will" and the examples used to prove it - they should not be nailed down to any one position such that ALL CAN SEE THEM DOING IT!!

That is pretty funny when you think about it! They want to claim that we can see them doing what they are doing!!

 

This is typically what Calvinists will do when they have no answer...which is what happens EVERYTIME sound biblical theology is presented as a SYSTEM, not as disjointed knee-jerk "facts." No answers...just insults.

Secondly, we know what you folks believe because we are constantly bombarded by it and we TRY to understand what you are saying...by the sense of your statement you have shown that you DO NOT understand what the Bible says (what I believe).

By the way I am not Arminian. I am a Bible believer. PERIOD. Your opinion carries just as much wieght as mine. NONE.

On the nature and magnitude of God...The Bible describes a MUCH MORE SOVERIEGN and POWERFUL God than Calvin's theology does.

Here's some free advice: Throw stones only if you can first give a thoughtful, scripturally based answer.

 

Sorry for any offense Jarhed, none intended!
In the book, The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination by Boettner he states it is impossible to other than Calvinist or Armenian as it is either one or the other! If you research Calvinism you will find it to be only a nickname for biblical truths, sound doctrines that glorify God! In rereading my post I see nothing insulting and believe me, none were intended! Repentance is a necessary requirement for us all and certainly not an insult! Actually I pray God's blessings on your life!!

 

My friend, I could care less what Boettner says, I only care what the Bible says. I have, in fact, researched Calvinism extensively. I know things about your founder that would make a man's hair go to a permanent. I have a firm grasp on the "verse out of context" method of "proving" what Predestination and Election are, among others. As I have said before, the Space-Time Continuim model separates the finite world of man from the infinite world of God. It sets things in order (Belief Eph4:12-13) BEFORE Election) and makes Calvinism illogical at best. No one has answered these things (I am not typing them AGAIN FOR THE 25th TIME) because they cannot. The Bible stands... Boettner, Calvin, Origen, Pink, and Augustine...who cares???????

 

My quoting Boettner was only to say, Jarhed that we either do it man's way or God's way. Take your pick! Its just that simple! Submit or hang on to your 'rights' to be 'king' of your life!

 

How can I submit...I have no will to submit!

But seriously...submission is an act of free will...and I do! Phil 2:3 LET (allow, relent, submit, suffer) this mind to be in you. Even as a believer, according to the Lev. law of redemption, I have a personal choice to return to my master who hath redeemed me, or strike out on my own. Notice the vss. in Rom.6, concerning the Christian life: Should walk, should not serve sin, yield your members, reckon ye yourselves, yield YOURSELVES, Obey, obedience...adnauseum, adfinitum...

Facts are stubborn things. I submit because it is MY WILL to submit to HIS WILL. See the principle: "And IF the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I WILL not go out free: Then his master (who obviously did not make up his mind for him) shall bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever." Ex.21:5-6
(parenthesis obviously mine)
Soveriegnty is DOMINION, not CONTROL. Soveriegnty does not negate free will.
The plain sense of scripture is just that.

Why is it the Calvinist, who refuses to let God out of the box his master (JCalvin) built for him, constantly accuses the bible believer of pride?

How is it that I am accused of Augustinian philosophy by someone who derives an entire body of doctrine from him?

HMMMM

 

Why would you say that Calvinists are followers of John Calvin? That makes no sense and we have plainly said many times that we are not followers of John Calvin. Our doctrine comes from what we belivee the Bible says.

Please refrain from such accusations and help to raise the level of conversation.