Featured Monergism vs. Synergism

Faith is part of the gift in eph2. It is part of the salvation that comes through grace.

 

I think some agreement in this thread could possibly come by some contemplation over "primary causes" and "secondary causes". God is the primary cause of all things regarding our salvation, or else he is probably not entirely God. Man is induced to action by God, and therefore follows through with the process. God is glorified because he is the prime mover. Man is active in the process because God has made him become so.

This is basically monergism...or "synergism" in a somewhat loose sense of the word.

"Synergism" in a pure sense involves two "primary causes" that work together towards a common goal. This tends to invite the idea of man being sovereign over his part, and God being sovereign over his part. Hence, there are perhaps two sovereignties...and the door tends to become opened to the idea of two gods.

I don't think the Arminians really venture this far in their thinking. The Pelagians and Semi-Pelagians do, however. Arminius believed in primary causes and secondary causes. To him, God restored to all man the ability to choose (as secondary causes) to believe upon Christ. To Calvin, God only restored to his elect this ability. To Pelagius, man never lost this ability. To semi-Pelagians, men only lost the strength.

Both Arminius and Calvin believed in total depravity. The main difference was in who was restored...and perhaps when. See Roger Olson's work, Arminian Theology, found here: http://www.amazon.com/dp/0830828419/?tag=baptis04-20

Blessings and fellowship...

 

I know that is the standard line of reformed folks but you will not find any other passage to back that interpretation up.

 

Skandelon you have failed to respond to a question I posed about your response to an earlier post by me. I assume this was an oversight but I am curious!

 

I answered that question in post 36...

 

I know that is what you are saying and I'm telling you that is INCORRECT, because we don't believe faith merits salvation, any more so than you do. Whether faith flows effectually from regeneration or is a free response to God's gracious appeal it is still something MAN is responsible for and is a necessity for salvation, but it doesn't MERIT salvation in either case. It is not a WORK because it is not EARNING or DESERVING of salvation. UNDERSTAND?

Let me try it this way. The bible says that God gives grace to the humble, right? Now, does that mean that humble people deserve to be giving grace? NOOOOO! If it did then it wouldn't be grace, it would be a merit or wage. Whether humility is a quality of man imposed by God or freely chosen by man matters not as to this fact.

One more illustration: Suppose my 5 year old, who has about 35 cents to his name, is wanting to buy my old ipod. Can he afford it? No. He can't give me anything that would be WORTH receiving my ipod. Well, days go by and one evening after dinner suppose that there was only one cookie left and it was his, but his little sister dropped her cookie and the dog ate it, and she was crying. He chooses to give her his cookie and I see him do it. In response, I decide give him my ipod. Did that cookie deserve an ipod? Did even that act of sharing earn or merit or deserve something like that? No. It was a gift in response to his humble gesture. As a 5 year old he couldn't have every really done enough work to merit that price (because 5 years old work isn't valuable enough as it causes more messes than it helps).

Now, all analogies fall short, and this one certainly doesn't cover all the issues involved, but what it does show is that no one would ever say that the boy worked to merit that gift. If he had looked at me before giving up the cookie and said, "Dad, if give up my cookie will you give me your ipod?" I would have said "NO DEAL," because it had nothing to do with that. It was a gift of love in response to what I deemed as a choice of self sacrifice. See the difference?

The Jews were trying to earn God's favor and 'make a deal' for their eternal life. That is works salvation. They are attempting to earn something they couldn't possibly earn. If they gave up trying and rested in Him they would have received what they were working so hard to merit. But had they said, "Hey, God, if I give up trying and humble myself, then will you give me eternal life?" It would have been the same problem. They would have tried to manufactured some false humility made a profession so as to once again attempt to earn it. Either way, that is works salvation, but that is NOT what we believe in. Okay?

 

So, once he is freed by regeneration then he will desire to believe, right? So, he will freely of his own will choose to believe because he will want to believe. How is that not a "work" according to your definition earlier? Even if he is doing it as a result of regeneration, he is still doing it and it is still a necessity for his salvation. He is still saved by grace through a work. It may be a work effectually produced by regeneration, but its still a work according to your definition. What you definition lacked was the aspect of 'earning/deserving or meriting." Neither of us believe that any amount of faith merits or deserves salvation, or at least we shouldn't.

Can't help but wonder why the inward work of regeneration wasn't sufficient to bring Thomas to faith?

That is a misrepresentation. That would be like believing the Prodigal Son was in control over whether or not his Father would receive him when he returned home. He was completely at the mercy of the Father, just as we are. He owes us nothing and we control nothing that he hasn't granted us control over.

 

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
Excellent answers.

 

how can sinners whose very nature is at war against God, whose desire is to remain in darkness, come to jesus and get saved apart from the lord granting them new herats/minds/ears able to receive and believe thetruth of Him though?

 

again, how do spiritual dead people summon up faith to receive jesus, as theur sin natures rebekl againstsuch a thing, as we want to save ourselves by our own works and efforts? See EVERY other religion not Christianity!

 

Your responses and representations of Calvinism were quite adequate and I don't see anything listed here that would change anything I have said in response to you already.

Could it be that you opted to copy and paste confessional statements because you didn't want to answer the arguments I already posed against your stated views?

 

Awww, the ol' "you must not agree with me because you don't really understand me" argument. I'm calling you out on that one.

Please specifically lay out what I said that was misrepresentative of your views? Could it not be that I understood you, but disagreed?

Or maybe you will admit that when "WORKS" is define properly (involving merit), that you'd have to admit that neither of us hold to a works based salvation?

 

Well... The Guy who saved me said the same thing...

Your buds asked Him this one time. They didn't believe His answer, so I don't expect you to either.

Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?" Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."

 

Then if fits in your definition. You need to change you definition a little for this not be be a work as well.

and according to your definition that would be man in cooperation with God following being regenerated. You need a different soteriology or a different definition of works.

I don't believe EITHER of our views makes faith into a work. I think you definition of works (where you exclude the concept of merit) is false, thus causing this false label.

 

Salvation in scripture is .....NEVER....not once to be said to be.....Because of FAITH......it is always by, or through faith.

Man does not have inherent saving faith.Faith as an instrumentality is given along with repentance at regeneration as a gift from God.