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Featured Monergists who are not Calvinists II

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Reformed, Jan 24, 2020.

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  1. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    Jon, the view you articulated in the first paragraph is more in keeping with conditional election, i.e. Arminianism. If Christ died for the human family (all of humanity) there must, by necessity, be the ability for all to believe the gospel. If not, then His death on the part of all of humanity is futile and against His nature.

    I have difficulty dissecting how you view definite atonement and what you actually believe. Your post seems to be conflating the terms. The only part I understand clearly is when you wrote, "I no longer view Christ's death as a payment for the sin debt of the elect but instead view Christ as dying both for the human family and also for the elect corporately " This is a statement of what you believe. So, it seems you know what definite atonement is, you just do not believe in it. When it comes to Election, the Calvinist position is Unconditional Election; Unconditional Election being, "A view associated with Augustine and Calvin that God elects to save some solely on the basis of God's freedom and love and not on the basis of any merit or efforts on the part of humans." (McKim)
     
    #21 Reformed, Jan 25, 2020
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  2. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Actually, conditioned upon our freewill response to the applied Grace of God towards us...
     
    #22 Yeshua1, Jan 25, 2020
  3. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    JonC,

    That was not the basis for my comments in post#5

    Not at all. I have come to see how you do what you do, that is all. This thread has a direction to it, it is not about you.

    Your posts are quite vague. It is not worth the time to hunt them down, they lead to nothing of substance.

     
    #23 Iconoclast, Jan 25, 2020
  4. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    They really had a way to write back then what scriptures teach in regards to this issue, eh?
     
    #24 Yeshua1, Jan 25, 2020
  5. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Scriptures teach that also!
     
    #25 Yeshua1, Jan 25, 2020
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  6. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Your rejection of penal substitution seems not to be due to misunderstanding what calvinists say that it is, but what the scriptures state regarding it!
     
    #26 Yeshua1, Jan 25, 2020
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  7. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Jesus died in the pace, in stead of his own people, as He is the High priest over each one of us, not the Church itself, and is not the Church really individual saved persons?
     
    #27 Yeshua1, Jan 25, 2020
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  8. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The question is more as to what scriptures teach regarding atonement, and it still seems to place major emphasis on the view that you rejected!
     
    #28 Yeshua1, Jan 25, 2020
  9. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    So your proof to back up your claim that I do not understand Calvinism are comments I made concerning specific aspects Reformation Arminianism?

    I said that Calvinism holds the Father elected people to salvation based solely on the will of the Father (not the saved's future state in Christ). The Father elects and gives these sheep to Christ.

    How is this different from "real Calvinism"?

    I said that Calvinism holds via Christ's death God effected salvation (not merely making it a potential). How do you arrive at the false conclusion this is a rejection of Christ as surety?

    You seem to be picking out bits and pieces of one conversation, noting I did not say other stuff, and inventing a belief you desperately want me to hold.

    Are you able to show even one misunderstanding I have regarding Calvinism?
     
    #29 JonC, Jan 25, 2020
  10. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Are those in that future state ion chjrist though already elected by God before they became part of the Church then?
     
    #30 Yeshua1, Jan 25, 2020
  11. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    Just because something is old does not necessarily means it is better, although as we get older we tend to appreciate the things from our youth. In regards to theology, our Particular Baptist forefathers from the 17th-century did not have the amount of distractions we have today. There was no Baptist Board, no Internet. The world was much larger and it took nearly eight weeks for letters to cross the Atlantic. Now all we have to do is click our mouse and we have sent a tome of information to people we have never met that are halfway around the world. Much of what we collectively have to save is not worth the words we type. So, yes. They had a way to write back then that had more substance than what we typically read today.
     
    #31 Reformed, Jan 25, 2020
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  12. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    As I understand Ephesians 2:8, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: . . ," "For by grace are ye saved through faith; . . . it is the gift of God: . . ," is monergistic and ". . . that not of yourselves: . . ." totally excudes synergism.
     
    #32 37818, Jan 26, 2020
  13. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Yes, as the entire salvation package, as outlined in Romans 8, is all from and of God.
     
    #33 Yeshua1, Jan 27, 2020
  14. MartyF

    MartyF Well-Known Member

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    Not everyone here lives alone wandering Central America or travels alone across the U.S. constantly changing address. I was stupid and at first thought that this forum wouldn’t have as many nuts traveling to this forum. As a result I gave more personal information than I really should have. I keep my profile private for this reason. I keep my profile private, primarily, to protect myself and others.

    As I believe you have actually doxxed people on this forum you disagree with, you are a prime example of why someone should keep their profile private.
     
    #34 MartyF, Jan 28, 2020
  15. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    do you have an example of what you claim?
     
    #35 Iconoclast, Jan 28, 2020
  16. MartyF

    MartyF Well-Known Member

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    Which claim are you talking about?
     
    #36 MartyF, Jan 28, 2020
  17. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Your last paragraph on post 34.
     
    #37 Iconoclast, Jan 31, 2020
  18. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    That - (on the surface) seems to be a very foolish claim.

    My claim is that Calvinists believe Christ was punished in our stead (drank the cup of God's wrath so we would not).

    You know that old phrase "put up or shut up" (or "gird your loins like a man"? It applies.

    What statesment that I made is a misunderstanding of Calvinism?

    (Or are you carrying on a tradition of falsely accusing people with whom you disagree?).
     
    #38 JonC, Jan 31, 2020
  19. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    I was just saying that while you do understand what we as Calvinists hold to in regards to the Pst, your reason to reject that view would be due to some misunderstanding in what the scriptures were teaching us.
     
    #39 Yeshua1, Jan 31, 2020
  20. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I know what I said. I said do not make accusations you cannot prove.

    Members have been corrected for such nonsense and you are better than that.

    I do not reject Scripture. And I understand Calvinism (I was a Calvinist). I disagree with Calvinism.

    Do you not agree it would be very foolish to claim someone does not understand Calvinism without being able to point to a misunderstanding? That would be idiotic.
     
    #40 JonC, Jan 31, 2020
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