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Monergists who are not Calvinists

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Reformed, Jan 22, 2020.

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  1. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member
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    Who has said that?
     
    #61 David Kent, Jan 24, 2020
  2. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Who has said they are elected outside of Jesus Christ? There is not one Calvinist I know of that has ever said such heresy. That's a pretty big charge George!
     
    #62 Reformed1689, Jan 24, 2020
  3. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    I think some Hyper cals might hold that God determind directly evil and sin to occur for his ultimate glory, but I have never held to that!
     
    #63 Yeshua1, Jan 24, 2020
  4. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    The problem with the term "Hyper-Calvinist" is that there is no generally accepted definition. I have used the term before but I prefer to call Hyper-Calvinism for what it is, false teaching.
     
    #64 Reformed, Jan 24, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2020
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  5. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Jesus did experience while upon his Cross the hell that all lost sinners will, as he atoned and paid the sin debt for his own Elect then...
    That view is a indeed a far cry from WoF that would Jesus actually spend 3 days in Hell, getiing walked upon, as he was then just a lost sinner!
     
    #65 Yeshua1, Jan 24, 2020
  6. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    As Spurgeon made famous" Calvinism is the Gospel"
     
    #66 Yeshua1, Jan 24, 2020
  7. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    You might want to start a different thread on this, this is a hot button issue with John.
     
    #67 Reformed1689, Jan 24, 2020
  8. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    what convinced me of the truth of Calvinism in regards to the Sotierology aspect was that Grace of God really makes perfect sense in that system, as its all of God!
     
    #68 Yeshua1, Jan 24, 2020
  9. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    I would not go as far as karl barth and hold that All sinners were elect now in Christ, but all who were shown mercy are indeed elect in Christ!
     
    #69 Yeshua1, Jan 24, 2020
  10. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    I do not want to derail this thread, so just might do that!
     
    #70 Yeshua1, Jan 24, 2020
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  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    I just use that term normally to describe those who would hold to eternal justification....
     
    #71 Yeshua1, Jan 24, 2020
  12. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    I think that is one qualifier. When the means (the preaching of the Gospel) is removed from soteriology, we are left with an unbiblical theology. While soteriology is completely monergistic, God has sovereignly decreed the Gospel as the means by which God calls the Elect in-time. Justification was promised in the Old Testament and the promise was fulfilled in Christ. However, it is applied to elect persons at conversion, not in eternity past. On this point most Monergists and Synergists are in agreement.

    Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
     
    #72 Reformed, Jan 24, 2020
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  13. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Exactly
     
    #73 Reformed1689, Jan 24, 2020
  14. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    I had an whole thread on the topic.

    Jesus Christ is NOT God's criterion for election?!
     
    #74 George Antonios, Jan 24, 2020
  15. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    #75 Reformed1689, Jan 24, 2020
  16. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    Brb, making sure which David it was.
     
    #76 George Antonios, Jan 24, 2020
  17. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Ok....it took me a while but I think I get what you are saying (I am not the sharpest tool...just ask @Reformed ). If I understand you correctly then I agree.

    What I understand is you are saying Calvinism holds election outside of Christ in the context that those who ware elected are chosen by God for reasons unknown to us. They are chosen not because they are "in Christ" but because God chose them. Being elected they are chosen to salvation. This election (this chosen) in Calvinism has absolutely nothing to do with Christ but are those God will give to them.

    Is that at least approaching the topic or am I again picking tulips in left field?
     
    #77 JonC, Jan 24, 2020
  18. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    You're exactly right. And a number of them made that point in the thread. Some even thanked me for exposing that in the thread. It's there for all to see. I'm just now skimming through a couple of instances.
    They were elect outside of Christ. Christ is then simply the means/vehicle of God effecting their salvation, but not the reason why they were chosen.
     
    #78 George Antonios, Jan 24, 2020
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  19. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I think the confusion is the term "outside of Christ". But you are exactly correct.

    This aspect of Calvinism is something Barth would consider philosophical because it uses a "back door" rather than Christ to approach the topic.

    Christ was not the determining factor of their "election" (as it is in "Classic Arminianism") but the end result of the Father's election.

    To be fair, I can see how arguments can be made from both sides (the sheep are given to Christ would be the argument from a Calvinistic perspective - BUT from a non-Calvinistic perspective people are chosen to salvation outside of Christ).

    This is a very interesting observation.
     
    #79 JonC, Jan 24, 2020
  20. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Ok, I think you are confusing two different things here.

    The elect are chosen based on the pleasure of God and God alone. That is a way of saying elected outside of Christ, but that does not mean Christ is not relevant or necessary to the election. Those are two totally different things. We are elected TO BE IN CHRIST. So in that sense, the ARE elected IN Christ.
     
    #80 Reformed1689, Jan 24, 2020
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