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Monergists who are not Calvinists

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Reformed, Jan 22, 2020.

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  1. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Do you believe that Adam's sin was outside of God's sovereignty?
     
    #81 JonC, Jan 24, 2020
  2. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    If you don't know that the criterion for election is Jesus Christ, then the criterion for election is not Jesus Christ in your mind.
    No amount of mental acrobatics will ever change that.

    Election Criterion Unknown 1.gif
     
    #82 George Antonios, Jan 24, 2020
  3. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Ok, what do you mean when you say the criterion for election is Jesus Christ?
     
    #83 Reformed1689, Jan 24, 2020
  4. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    So of you own words, you were still elected for a reason other than Christ. That you were elected to be placed in Christ [which Ephesians 1:4 doesn't even technically say] doesn't change the fact that you were first elected outside of Christ.
    If you were elected to be placed in a can, it's because you were first elected outside of the can.
     
    #84 George Antonios, Jan 24, 2020
  5. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    I mean what the scriptures plainly declare: that God elects those who believe on Christ / get into Christ by faith.
     
    #85 George Antonios, Jan 24, 2020
  6. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Again, you need to define your terms.
     
    #86 Reformed1689, Jan 24, 2020
  7. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Yes and no. He chooses who will believe. So in the sense that the elect are only those who believe in Christ? Yes. that is true. Were the elect because of that belief? No. They believe because they are elect.
     
    #87 Reformed1689, Jan 24, 2020
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  8. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    #88 George Antonios, Jan 24, 2020
  9. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    #89 Reformed1689, Jan 24, 2020
  10. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    David, I am not speaking for @George Antonios but I think that he is defining outside of Christ just as you have here:
    You both have good arguments, BTW. Are the elect chosen to salvation apart from Christ (based on the pleasure of God alone)? What about the Father giving the sheep to Christ?
     
    #90 JonC, Jan 24, 2020
  11. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    That is precisely why Christ, in the way that @George Antonios is trying to argue, is NOT the criterion for election. The Father gives His elect to Christ. It is at that point, the point of conversion, that the elect are in Christ. But that does not change the fact that they were already elect prior to conversion.
     
    #91 Reformed1689, Jan 24, 2020
  12. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I understand. But then there is the issue of election and not Christ being the criteria for salvation.

    If Calvinism is correct then we have to deal with the fact the crux of salvation is not Christ or the Cross but the election of the Father (it is what Barth referred to as "back door" philosophy).

    I think this is what @George Antonios is pointing out, and for my part I had not considered this until reading his post.
     
    #92 JonC, Jan 24, 2020
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  13. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    This discussion highlights the dividing line on this issue, as what is the very basis that God has chosen for sinners to get saved and become saints?
     
    #93 Yeshua1, Jan 24, 2020
  14. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    I read a book while in College, and their main point seems to be what many non cals really hold with, in the sense that God elected to chose and save all sinners in Christ, but up to us now to ratify that choice, for we can ourselves in a sense un elect us!
     
    #94 Yeshua1, Jan 24, 2020
  15. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The Cross of Christ is the Highway to heaven, and election is the way God gets His own on that stairway!
     
    #95 Yeshua1, Jan 24, 2020
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  16. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    No, God permitted it to happen!
     
    #96 Yeshua1, Jan 24, 2020
  17. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    True. The difference is whether the basis is divine election or Christ. These are two very different approaches.
     
    #97 JonC, Jan 24, 2020
  18. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Are you aware that this is what Calvinists typically refer to as Arminianism (God foresaw what would occur and permitted it to happen)?
     
    #98 JonC, Jan 24, 2020
  19. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    We are the object of the election of God, which is to now be found in Christ!
     
    #99 Yeshua1, Jan 24, 2020
  20. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    I am saying that God did not cause/force compell Adam to commit that original sin....
     
    #100 Yeshua1, Jan 24, 2020
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