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Moore's Final Examination Question

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Ruiz, Nov 15, 2011.

  1. Ruiz

    Ruiz New Member

    Jun 9, 2010
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  2. annsni

    annsni Administrator

    May 30, 2006
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    My first response in my heart would be to counsel Pablo to do the right thing, go to the authorities and see what can be done. I would have men from the church work with him and his family to see if there would be any way to stay in the country while working to become legal. However, Pablo would need to be prepared to go back to his country - or another country if he is able - to be able to work to become a citizen of this country even if it means that he'd have to wait 10 years. I WOULD wait until his youngest child is 6 months old and then have the church support Pablo in moving his whole family to wherever he was going to go. I'd also ask members of the church to help financially support Pablo as a missionary in that other country so that he would not have to do the "forced labor" sort of work. I'd assist him working with local (in El Salvador) churches to try to find him a better work situation or help him go to another country legally to be able to work - all the while being prepared to help this brother to live and support his family if needed until such time as he can be self-sufficient and eventually come back to the states as a legal alien or citizen.
  3. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

    Mar 1, 2004
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    I would counsel him to first accept Christ as Lord and Savior. Then I would tell him he needs to surrender himself to the government for what ever they will decide under the law.
    As for his employer I would confront him as a brother let him know he also needs to go to the authorities and let them know of his crime of knowing having an illegal employee.
    All this because we are to obey those who are in authority over us unless they tell us to disobey the word of God.

    Lastly I would let Pablo know that we as a church would seek to have his case put on a fast track for re-entry. Also we would make sure as a church that we would care for any needs of his family who are here in the states that are not met by him or them.
    Finally if one or both parties who were in violation of the law refused to comply with the law I would personally turn them in if need be. In the case of the believer I would first try church discipline to try and get them to do what is right according to the word of God and if that failed I would turn them in.

    Also about the church and how to handle the church. If the pastor had been a wise man he would have already dealt with this kind of scenario teaching the people to obey the law while seeking to win others to Christ and how to do it as this is a common thing today. However if he had not done that then he would need to start a teaching on the matter.
    #3 freeatlast, Nov 15, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 15, 2011
  4. North Carolina Tentmaker

    Sep 19, 2003
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    Wow, great question. It is twisted a bit in places like changing immigration law and eliminating his ability to become a citizen through marriage.

    First off, I would have no problem baptizing Pablo. His salvation is implied if not described in detail. If he is a child of God he is part of my family and I would have no problem baptizing him into my church.

    Second, on his immigration status I would put him in touch with a good immigration lawyer. A confidential assessment with a trained professional is what he needs, not legal advice from a pastor. I would offer to use church funds to help Pablo resolve his immigration status but he has to face the music and fix it.

    I would address the problem of Tyler and his employment practices, but ultimately that would be up to him. I would have difficulty supporting Tyler in a position of leadership within my church. Saying that financial consultants say Tyler’s business would be “financially unfeasible” without illegal labor is no different than saying the unsafe practices Pablo fled in El Salvador are unavoidable. If you can’t operate your business in a legal fashion than close it down or join the other illegal businesses like the drug runners and pimps, if it is wrong its wrong.

    I would not call the authorities and report Pablo or Tyler. Things told me in confidence as a minster remain in confidence and neither seem a danger to themselves or others.

    But that is me, always seeing in black and white.
  5. menageriekeeper

    menageriekeeper Active Member

    Feb 20, 2004
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    Is he serious? Does he really think a person's immigration status should keep him from being saved and baptized? The only reason there could be from preventing this is the idea that folk are baptized into a local church instead of into a universal church. Either God accepts us where we stand or else none of us have any hope. Which of us is sinless?

    The mere fact that these issues have come to the forefront of Pablo's mind means that God is indeed working on him. Of course he should be baptized. Perfection in Christ is a process, not something we gain immediately!

    The fact of the man's immigration status is between the man and God. He may face some tough times doing what *I* think God would have him to do (apply for citizenship legally), but that should have NOTHING to do with the fact of the man's salvation. Pablo gets to decide what he should do about the fact that he is in violation of US law. Again, which of us, even after salvation is sinless? We aren't guilty any longer, but we aren't sinless.

    A few other points: bearing false witness against his neighbor (yeah, part of that commandment was left out) Where has Pablo done such? Maybe the SS#, but that hardly affects the true holder of the number.

    All the description of what Pablo does with his ill gained earnings as an illegal is fluff. What about illegal didn't he understand when he came? Oh yeah, the part of it that meant God put him into a tough spot in his own country. Since when is life supposed to be easy? It's nice he's been able to do that for years, but, at who's expense did he earn those dollars? Who did he love more, his neighbor or himself?

    What about his employer? Well, its employers like that who encourage illegals to come here to work. There are other ways of bringing employees into this country. Legal ways. Yeah, ya got jump thru some hoops, but it can be done. But none of these things reaches the scope of church discipline. This is a cultural issue, not a moral one.
  6. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Mar 4, 2011
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    This question is an example of what I call an "Enabling Scenario." A situation is concocted where you are invited to pick the lesser of two evils.

    But it does no good to say a Christ-like man would not violate government rules provided they are for a godly purpose. The response from those pushing these wicked scenarios is "never mind how the battleship got into the middle of the desert, what are you going to do about it.

    Rule number one, it is never right to do wrong to get a chance to do right. The end according to Christ does not justify the means. So all this invitation to violate the temporal laws of man in order to fulfill the eternal commands of God is so much bilge water.

    So lets go through it.

    1) The pastor has failed to explain the gospel to Pablo, there is no need for Pablo to get right with the law in order to give himself to Christ. Come as you are!

    2) Pablo should seek safe haven in the USA because of the abuse in his homeland.

    3)Pablo should stop working for an employer that condones lawless behavior.

    4) The employer has disqualified himself from teaching God word, and should be counseled (first step in discipline) for not giving to Caesar what is Caesar's.

    5) Pablo should take his family to a country where he could enter legally, whether El Salvador or other.

    6) Pablo should trust in God and do his best to provide for his extended family, but fear of something in the future in no way justifies current lawlessness. There is no end to the depravity that can be rationalized with such an argument.

    7) The mandate to provide for your family assumes lawful action, not criminal action.

    8) Such a pastor providing the Biblically based advise to Pablo would be following God and not what might be pleasing to men.

    9) Of course you can baptize Pablo, he is showing an awareness of ungodliness and a willingness to follow Christ's commands. The proof will be in the pudding, will he exhibit a changed life of trustworthy service to Christ.

    10) Yes, Pablo is showing repentance from sin, but not that he has ended all his past sinful practices. Somethings take time, even to realize they are sinful. If he trusts in Christ's forgiveness, even though he is not able to follow Christ perfectly, he is as good as it gets.

    May God Bless
    #6 Van, Nov 15, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 15, 2011
  7. Mexdeaf

    Mexdeaf New Member

    Mar 14, 2005
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    Shucks- pastors here in South Texas face these kind of "di-lemons" all the time.

    We operate on "Don't ask, don't tell."

    Now if someone comes and tells, then the answer becomes more challenging.

    Our immigration laws are a disaster and our immigration enforcement is a disgrace.