Mortal and Venial Sin

I believed in the leadership of the elder, pastor, bishop but this office is all the same in functions. They are to rule according to the scriptures. This is the only leadership that Christ established. Even saint Apostle Peter don't assume preeminence:

IPet. 5:1
Therefore, as a fellow elder and witness to the sufferings of the Messiah, and also a participant in the glory about to be revealed, I exhort the elders among you:
5:2
shepherd God's flock among you, not overseeing out of compulsion but freely, according to God's will; not for the money but eagerly;
5:3
not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock.

Jesus taught these:

Matt23: Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples: 2 "The scribes and the Pharisees are seated in the chair of Moses. 3 Therefore do and observe whatever they tell you. But don't do what they do, because they don't do what they say. 4 They tie up heavy loads that are hard to carry and put them on people's shoulders, but they themselves aren't willing to lift a finger to move them. 5 They do everything to be observed by others: They enlarge their phylacteries and lengthen their tassels. 6 They love the place of honor at banquets, the front seats in the synagogues, 7 greetings in the marketplaces, and to be called ' Rabbi' by people. 8 "But as for you, do not be called 'Rabbi,' because you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 Do not call anyone on earth your father, because you have one Father, who is in heaven. 10 And do not be called masters either, because you have one Master, the Messiah. 11 The greatest among you will be your servant. 12 Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

13 "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! You lock up the kingdom of heaven from people. For you don't go in, and you don't allow those entering to go in. 14 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! You devour widows' houses, and make long prayers just for show. This is why you will receive a harsher punishment.] 15 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to make one convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as fit for hell as you are

 

I accept your apology and thanks for the link.
I need to study them well.

 

Murder is a "mortal sin" so also is "skipping out on Sunday Mass".

If a CATHOLIC dies with Mortal sin unconfessed - they can not go to heaven - nor purgatory. It is straight to hell for them, declares the Papacy.

Venial sins are the little ones for which a Catholic does not get kicked out of Purgatory.

Now the BAD news is that NON-Catholics are tormented in Purgatory for the MAX time since they never "earn indulgences" nor are any plenary indulgences earned on their behalf. Poor Protestants. However the GOOD news is that "Purgatory is a purely made up doctrine by Catholics". They call it a "doctrine of common sense" not of scripture.

Other doctrines are considered to BE scriptural by the Catholic church - such as the doctrine of sin and salvation.

In Christ,

Bob

 

If a CATHOLIC dies with Mortal sin unconfessed - they can not go to heaven - nor purgatory. It is straight to hell for them, declares the Papacy.</font>[/QUOTE]Bob, you need to pay closer attention in RCIA class. Look up "perfect act of contrition" to learn how mortal sin is forgiven outside of confession.

I once heard a story about St. John Vianney (here given to the best of my memory): A woman of his acquaintance had a sinful, unrepentant husband who one day fell from his horse and died instantly. The woman was very concerned about the state of his soul, and asked Fr. Vianney about it. The Father was granted a vision of the man's fate, and told the woman "Between saddle and ground forgiveness was both sought and granted."

My point is that no sensible Catholic places limits on the mercy of Almighty God, which does not, however, deny the life-destroying character of mortal sin.

 

Ok so lets say I goof off and miss Sunday Mass - cause it is more fun to watch football that day.

And then on Monday "I die". When the Priest gets there - I am dead with mortal sin on my soul. No excuse, no "perfect act of contrition" laying around to pull me out of the soup.

Catholic doctrine says "straight to hell - do not enter purgatory".

In christ,

Bob

 

Then you have committed a grave sin. Whether or not it is a mortal sin depends on two other factors: a full understanding of the grave evil of the act, and a free consent to commit the act anyway. In other words, looking straight into the face of God and saying "go pound salt!"

It's my strong opinion that an otherwise devout Catholic does not just randomly commit mortal sin now and then, as you hypothesize. They (including myself) most certainly commit grave sin now and then, but one of the other two factors is undoubtedly lacking. Otherwise you have the inconceivable situation of a person who spends most of their time trying to know, love and serve God, with occasional periods of open, complete and willful defiance of God. I thus believe that no single sin sends a person to hell, but rather a pattern of sin, of willful and complete rejection of God. And this belief in no way contradicts Church teaching.

And the way you know that with complete certainty is?

Anyone who completely and willfully rejects God has chosen hell, and God always respects our choices.

 

Mike,

It does not take long hours of study or many years of research to read from my commentary on the Baltimore Catechism - that skipping out on Sunday Mass "Just because watching football is more fun" is a "Mortal sin".

Consider the act of obtaining that simple bit of information "the easy part".

It also does not take much reading to discover that the Catholic Church does not say "Continual missing out on Sunday Mass will eventually become a Mortal Sin" as you suppose.

When I go to the priest after ONE time of skipping for such a reason - it is "already a sin" and I already must confess and repent of it. It does not "one day BECOME a sin after enough repetition".

The copy of the "Faith Explained" that I have does not say that Skipping out on Mass is "ok" just as long as you are not ALSO asking God to drop your name from the roles of the Christian church and choosing to become a pagan. Such an interpretation is not found in MY copy - is it in yours?

In Christ,

Bob

 

I've given you the three conditions for committing a mortal sin. You cannot show a clear and automatic link between "Just because watching football is more fun" and all of those three conditions, because you cannot see into the heart of each and every person who commits the act you describe.

I was very clear in what I said. If you think I said what you wrote above, go back again and read what I wrote until it becomes clear to you.

It is certainly a sin and should be confessed. It is not certainly a mortal sin. Read the other two conditions. They refer not to the act, but to the state of mind of the one committing the act.

Now I wrote that it is "OK"? Either I write badly or you read badly. Since I believe in the educational powers of repetition, I'll say again that mortal sin requires three conditions, and the act itself (grave sin) is only the first condition. The Church never describes a particular act as a "mortal sin", only as a "grave sin," because a mortal sin requires not only that the sin be objectively grave, but that the other two conditions be true as well. Your mistake is in thinking that every grave sin is a mortal sin.

I will continue to believe that in the improbable case of an otherwise devout Catholic who one day just decides to stay home and watch football, that person has very likely had a lapse which precludes full knowledge and/or full consent. I don't believe devout people can switch on and off their faith that easily.

 

While Mike has done a great job of showing your continuous fallacies, Bob, you should know that "murder" is certainly not always mortal. If I accidentally kill someone by hitting them on the highway, that is "manslaughter," while it is also "murder." If I go and stab my teacher, that is "homicide" and "murder." Both are cases of murder. Only one is premeditated. Both are grave, but only one is mortal.

You throw around words like you know what they mean, but your context dictates otherwise.

You speak a lot of quotes but hardly ever quote anyone. Of course, this statement is true, but you word it in a horrid manner. Making an arguement emotional shows your lack of knowledge and appeal to emotions.

One can NOT be kicked out of purgatory. If one is in the state, he will arrive safe and sound in Heaven.

Actually, we pray for all souls in purgatory in the Eucharistic prayers, not just those of Catholics. We pray for all who have died in God's friendship, which I hope includes you, Bob.

Why not quote that last part, Bob? Oh, because the "not of scripture" part is your clever way of adding words that you want us to believe Catholics say, but they never actually did. I trust your words in this thread about as far as I can throw you.

God bless,

Grant

 

None of the above refutes people having authority. It refutes the abuse of that authority. It in no way asserts what you say it does.

God bless,

Grant

 

And that SECOND case - first degree Murder IS a mortal sin AS is skipping Sunday mass to goof off and watch a ball game. That was my point. BOTH of them are "classed together".

Both of them - will get you going directly to hell. (which was the topic of this thread).

There is nothing like "details".


quote:
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Originally posted by BobRyan:
If a CATHOLIC dies with Mortal sin unconfessed - they can not go to heaven - nor purgatory. It is straight to hell for them, declares the Papacy.
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Indeed - it is.


quote:
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Originally posted by BobRyan:
Venial sins are the little ones for which a Catholic does not get kicked out of Purgatory.
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Actually - "safe and sound in the torments of Purgatory" IF they are a Catholic.

This is why indulgences are to be "earned" for the departed loved ones. It is pointless to earn indulgences for someone "in heaven".


quote:
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Originally posted by BobRyan:
Now the BAD news is that NON-Catholics are tormented in Purgatory for the MAX time since they never "earn indulgences" nor are any plenary indulgences earned on their behalf. Poor Protestants.
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The problem is - "earning indulgences" are the only way to actually "get out" of purgatory. The Plenary "unlimitted" indulgence is the ideal - but the RCC points out that the "problem" EVEN with a plenary "unlimited" indulgence is that we can not be "certain" that God will be as merciful and generous as the Catholic Church that GRANTS the indulgence. The Indulgence is like a check written against the spiritual bank of "suffering" but we have no "guarantee" that Christ will "honor the check" - SO the RCC instructs us to earn MULTIPLE plenary indulgences for the SAME departed loved one.

None of that is going on for non-Catholics.

But that is ok - since only catholics must suffer the torments of Purgatory. If you are a non-Catholic you have only two options - heaven or hell.

But if you are Catholic - you realize that only the REALY bad guys go to hell - and pure saints go directly to heaven - so ALMOST EVERYONE else is going to purgatory.

quote:
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Originally posted by BobRyan:
However the GOOD news is that "Purgatory is a purely made up doctrine by Catholics". They call it a "doctrine of common sense" not of scripture.
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Of course - Grant was "FREE" to post all those "Purgatory texts" in God's Word as a way to "prove me to be in error". But he is content to simply say he hopes it is not true rather than "showing" actual doctrinal teaching of "purgatory" in God's Word.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Bob,

I can completely understand and sympathize with your instinctive rejection of equating first-degree murder with goofing off to watch a ball game. I instinctively reject such an equating as well. However, both are the breaking of Commandments. The Church cannot and should not try to produce a formula (1 first-degree murder equals N missed masses), so she does the best she can, which is to recognize that breaking commandments is objectively a grave matter. She also recognizes that there are degrees of gravity (CCC 1858), and degrees of knowledge and consent (CCC 1859, 1860, 1862). The Church also recognizes that it is finally impossible for us to judge the sinfulness (as opposed to the gravity) of any given act ("However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgement of persons to the justice and mercy of God." CCC 1861).

I think that the Church does about the best it can to discuss the essentials and nuances of sin, while properly inclining on the side of caution (for to incline on the other side would be gravely irresponsible of her).

 

quote:
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Originally posted by BobRyan:

 

What commandment is broken by not going to Mass?

It is not a case of the Churches "ability to judge like God" it is the simple case of "Skipping mass to goof off is a mortal sin".

Applying legaleeze to that as if "some kinds of goofing off might be ok instead of going to mass" would be "playing with fire" not a doctrine/teaching of the RCC.

In Christ,

Bob