Moses said, "Hear HIM." The Father said, "Hear HIM". We must hear HIM then.

Of course Christ was superior to Moshe. Moshe was merely a man whom God used. Christ was / is God. That alone makes him superior.

Joseph Botwinick

 

James, who wrote the first copy of the Ten Commandments?

 

My point is not sidetracking the issue. Christ Himself gave us the Law through Moses. Christ Himself said that law would not be changed in the slightest. And yes, Christ Himself fulfilled the Law for us.

That does not change the Law; it only changes its power over us.

If the Law was now gone, dead, there would be nothing to judge any unbeliever by, would there?

In fact, there would be no way of knowing if we were obeying Christ.

The Law stands as long as sin exists.

Look again at what Paul says in Romans 7:

Indeed, I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet." ... For apart from the law, sin is dead.

 

None of that does away with the Law. We are simply not under it. However there is no way for the Holy Spirit to convict anyone of sin if sin is not defined. The Law defines it.

As long as sin stays, the Law does not change one least little mark of the pen.

You are confusing definition with conviction. They are not the same thing.

 

Well, Moses referred to the Sabbath and that it must be kept when manna was given. That was before he received the Law. Noah knew that capital punishment was required for murder. That was before Moses. Abraham knew that there was one God and only He was to be worshiped. That was before Moses.

Jacob and Laban certainly knew about bearing false witness against one's neighbor. That was before Moses.

Even Cain and Abel knew to sacrifice.

How do you explain that?

 

Either that or the law was there all along...it was just through Moses that the written Law was established.

You see, it was always God's law, not Moses' law. I suspect that man, being the same then as now, had added so much to it (just as the Pharisees did later) that God put it in stone so that there would be something definite to refer to.

But, by Paul's definition, without the law, sin is dead. So the law was there all along, starting with "Don't eat that ..."

 

I leave you to yours, DD. I'll stick with what Jesus said, and the evidence throughout the Bible.

In the meantime, there is this interesting verse in Exodus, BEFORE the law was given on Mt. Sinai. The scene is the waters at Marah, right after Moses throws the wood into the water, and the water becomes sweet.

Exodus 15:25b-26 -- There the Lord made a decree and a law for them, and there he tested them. He said, "If you listen carefully to the voice of the Lord your God and do what is right in his eyes, IF YOU PAY ATTENTION TO HIS COMMANDS AND KEEP ALL HIS DECREES, I will not bring on you any of the diseases I brought on the Egyptians, for I am the Lord who heals you."

This is quite some time before Mt. Sinai.

What commands and decrees do you suppose the Lord was referring to?

 

I was under the impression, James, that the God who was speaking in the Old Testament WAS Jesus! Do you believe differently?

Yes, there definitely was a greater revelation with the incarnation. But that did not erase the law. Here, so I don't have to type it out again, is what I wrote on your other thread on the law, too:

=========

Perhaps it would be good to mention that the reference to the Law in the Bible generally refers to the written Law -- that which was given through Moses.

If God's commands are considered law, however, then the law did indeed exist from the beginning, in verbal form. He commanded Adam not to eat of that one tree. Cain and Abel knew about sacrifice, and the Lord talked to Cain about sin. In the chapter DD is referring to (Romans 5), we also read the following: Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned -- for before the law was given, sin was in the world. BUT SIN IS NOT TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT WHEN THERE IS NO LAW.

Take a look at that closely. Sin is not taken into account when there is no law. And yet just before that, Paul writes before the law was given sin was in the world.

Adam could not have disobeyed had God not given him a law. But sin was in the world before that law was given. Where? How?

Satan. Sometime between the creation of Eden and God's direction to Adam, Satan rebelled. The first law was given to Adam.

And if sin is not taken into account without the law, then why Noah's Flood? Was God not taking all that sin into account?

The written law was given to Moses. But the law of God was known to man orally, at least, before that time, as evidenced by Paul himself in the very chapter DD is referring to when he mentions that 'the law was added so that the trespass might increase.' The word Paul uses there, translated 'law', is 'nomos.' It means law, principle, regulation...it is from the root 'nemo', which means 'to parcel out' as in food for animals.

There is no indication in the word Paul chose to use that he was referring to the written law, or the law as given through Moses in particular. The word indicates that he was talking about any of the rules and regulations set down by God. And these started in Eden, with the proscription regarding the fruit of one particular tree.